[Wildcat!]

Originally posted by JDIZZEL
I agree with Gay people adopting...
I know people have concerns for the child, but two gay men or two gay women are perfectly capable of providing an enviornment to raise a child.
Those who question their ability are the people that should be ashamed.
Of course, this debate is very relevant to our society, I see no problem for the child or the parents.. if people weren't ignorant then there would be no controversy.

Again, as much as I hae my reservations, I think I couldnt comletely decide, until I can hear fro children raised in that environment. That should be the best way to judge! But on the whole, I am sure its a 50/50 debate and its never gonna change, unless there is some definite proof that homosexuality is something youre born with! Until then a large portion of people will be against it!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

Your whole argument relies on whether being gay is chosen or not. There is loads of evidence to suggest that it is in your upbringing and is decided within the first 2 or so years.

there is also loads of evidence that it is biological but you've ignored that, either way, anything determined as a 2 year old is not exactly a Choice

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by hannah.

i'm not disputing their anyone's parenting abilities, I'm not even against it, I just feel that the children could be subjected to bullying, i mean ffs kids are being beaten up for wearing pink, i just think it's too early for our society to deal with

People get bullied for all sorts of reasons doesnt mean they should hide themselves away in shame, its the bullies with the problem to be tackled not the other way round. If you want an equal society then people have to have the same rights.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

You think (think being the key word) they are MORALLY wrong. I disagree with them as well but you can't dismiss their views as being wrong as this being a fact.

Views are opinion based and subjective. My view that what the KKK did is wrong is just as valid as their view that they think what they did was right. Neither of us are right and wrong.

Well if we all went round not saying some things are wrong then we'd have allsorts of human rights abuses going on. Their view is not based on fact it is based on ignorance and fear. We live in a society that uses logic and reasoning to determine what is right and wrong, if you have no evidence to back up your beliefs then you are ignorant and in some cases a danger to humanity

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

I disagree with gay adoption. I also disagree with being gay as a whole. Does that make me a bad person with 1800s views?

(just to clarify I don't have a problem with gay people, its just being gay as a concept itself)

yes it does. being gay isnt a choice either

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

Your whole argument relies on whether being gay is chosen or not. There is loads of evidence to suggest that it is in your upbringing and is decided within the first 2 or so years.

there is also loads of evidence that it is biological but you've ignored that, either way, anything determined as a 2 year old is not exactly a Choice [/quote]

I haven't ignored it, I'm just saying that the whole argument about the Jew thing rests on whether it is natural or if its learnt- neither for which there is conclusive evidence.

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

Well if we all went round not saying some things are wrong then we'd have allsorts of human rights abuses going on. Their view is not based on fact it is based on ignorance and fear. We live in a society that uses logic and reasoning to determine what is right and wrong, if you have no evidence to back up your beliefs then you are ignorant and in some cases a danger to humanity

Thats not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying you cannot state your opinion as a fact.

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

yes it does. being gay isnt a choice either

"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."

Clearly to draw the bigot card you haven't read my further posts. I'm not intolerant. I don't have a problem with gay people. I just don't approve of being gay

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well your prejudice is not based on any facts and make no mistake it is prejudice whether you go round bashing gays or not. Do you seriously think Gay people CHOOSE to be Gay, whether it is conditioning or biological, it starts way to early for there to be any choice about it! My opinion is based on evidence whether conclusive or not, there is evidence. Why do you have a dissaproving attitude towards Gay people? What evidence do you have to support that?

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Well your prejudice is not based on any facts and make no mistake it is prejudice whether you go round bashing gays or not. Do you seriously think Gay people CHOOSE to be Gay, whether it is conditioning or biological, it starts way to early for there to be any choice about it! My opinion is based on evidence whether conclusive or not, there is evidence. Why do you have a dissaproving attitude towards Gay people? What evidence do you have to support that?

I don't think they choose to be gay, I'm just not convinced you're born with it just as I'm not convinced its social conditioning.

My reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right. Thats all. Its just something I can't really help. But as I say whether someone is or not doesn't bother me, its not my business to get involved with its up to them what they want to do with their lives. I'll still talk to gay people just as I would anyone else and it won't change my opinion of them (some gay people on here could probably back me up on that), its just the actual concept that I disagree with. But then again it doesn't affect me so I'm not too bothered about it.

I don't have anti-gay views if thats how I come across, I'm not actively campaigning for the banning of gay rights or anything like that

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

I don't think they choose to be gay, I'm just not convinced you're born with it just as I'm not convinced its social conditioning.

My reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right. Thats all. Its just something I can't really help. But as I say whether someone is or not doesn't bother me, its not my business to get involved with its up to them what they want to do with their lives. I'll still talk to gay people just as I would anyone else and it won't change my opinion of them (some gay people on here could probably back me up on that), its just the actual concept that I disagree with. But then again it doesn't affect me so I'm not too bothered about it.

I don't have anti-gay views if thats how I come across, I'm not actively campaigning for the banning of gay rights or anything like that

No I didnt think you were at all lol. I do think your clinging onto an opinion against a lifestyle with no reason other than other people have said it. An outdated ideology from a different time and place says it, thats no reason to still hold that view.

[ange7]

Tom ... the problem is your being wishy washy and vague. It's all blurry and "shades of gray". You say you have nothing against gays but you think what they do is wrong and your against their lifestyle?. Is that what you think?... these arguments are mutually exclusive. Please just pick ONE... not both.

ps on topic ... roughly 1 in 10 people are gay ... statistic show that whether they are raised in a gay or a straight household the percentage is still the same. So that suggests that a child is equally likey of being gay when parented by straight parents or gay parent ie has no effect... it's genetic.
Tom your line

"Psychologists think you learn it and its in your upbringing."

is a lie ...

[ange7]

Tom :"reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right"

this isn't "reasoning". You know that right. There's no logical point made here.

[NettoSuperstar!]

"Psychologists think you learn it and its in your upbringing."

Wow I missed that line

How do you explain Alan Carr?

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!

No I didnt think you were at all lol. I do think your clinging onto an opinion against a lifestyle with no reason other than other people have said it. An outdated ideology from a different time and place says it, thats no reason to still hold that view.

I do agree ... but dropping a view is easier said than done tbh.

Originally posted by ange7
Tom ... the problem is your being wishy washy and vague. It's all blurry and "shades of gray". You say you have nothing against gays but you think what they do is wrong and your against their lifestyle?. Is that what you think?... these arguments are mutually exclusive. Please just pick ONE... not both.

I'm not against gays in the slightest. I don't agree with being gay. Huge difference. Think about it. Other people seem to be able to grasp that concept.

Originally posted by ange7
Tom :"reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right"

this isn't "reasoning". You know that right. There's no logical point made here.

Obviously you aren't religious in the slightest and don't come from a religious background. But thats a whole other debate.

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
"Psychologists think you learn it and its in your upbringing."

Wow I missed that line

How do you explain Alan Carr?

I never came up with that I'm just saying its a theory, just as you are born with it is also a theory.

[NettoSuperstar!]

"I'm not against gays in the slightest. I don't agree with being gay. Huge difference. Think about it. Other people seem to be able to grasp that concept."

What is it you dont agree with exactly?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Tom

I never came up with that I'm just saying its a theory, just as you are born with it is also a theory.

Learning and upbringing isnt really the argument, there is arguments that something that might happen to you when you are young (Out of your control) could influence your sexual orientation in later life, but I find the biological argument to be stronger.

[Tom]

Oh its just going around in circles and its just the same points to different people. Its just pointless now so just agree to disagree on this one.

Anyway about gay adoption ........

[ange7]

"I'm not against gays in the slightest. I don't agree with being gay. Huge difference. Think about it. Other people seem to be able to grasp that concept."


Wow that was a vey cheap shot. ... very unchristian of you....your pretty rude. I'm saying you CAN'T hold those 2 views at the same time.... the idea that your NOT against gays while at the same time saying your don't agree with their lifestyle. They are mutually exclusive ideas.... understand? ... yes there is a "Huge difference" ... that's the point... it's an insurmountable difference.,


ps I am religious I'm Greek Orthodox ... please don't act as though you have the upper hand in an argument because your somehow " closer to god". Can't belive you just played the jesus card. That's really tacky. These debates are about logic. You explanation ""reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right" doesn't tell me your religious... tells me your narrow minded you are.

[Tom]

Originally posted by ange7
"I'm not against gays in the slightest. I don't agree with being gay. Huge difference. Think about it. Other people seem to be able to grasp that concept."


Wow that was a vey cheap shot. ... very unchristian of you....your pretty rude. I'm saying you CAN'T hold those 2 views at the same time.... the idea that your NOT against gays while at the same time saying your don't agree with their lifestyle. They are mutually exclusive ideas.... understand? ... yes there is a "Huge difference" ... that's the point... it's an insurmountable difference.,

There is a difference. Go and have a long hard think. Its perfectly possible to not agree with something but at the same time not care less.

ps I am religious I'm Greek Orthodox ... please don't act as though you have the upper hand in an argument because your somehow " closer to god". Can't belive you just played the jesus card. That's really tacky.

I never said that and now you are just putting words into my mouth.

You explanation ""reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right" doesn't tell me your religious... tells me your narrow minded you are.

So what if thats my explanation? Am I not allowed to hold views that don't agree with the masses? And why should I have to explain myself anyway? Also that explanation doesn't lead to me being "closer to god" Call me narrow minded whatever, that can easily be turned back around because it takes a narrow minded person to not be able to accept the views of others. Think about it

[ange7]

Originally posted by Tom
Oh its just going around in circles and its just the same points to different people. Its just pointless now so just agree to disagree on this one.

Anyway about gay adoption ........

no we won't agree to disagree .... that assumes you actually brought an argument to this debate that went deeper than.." well my church tells me how to think so there!!....".

[Tom]

Originally posted by ange7

no we won't agree to disagree .... that assumes you actually brought an argument to this debate that went deeper than.." well my church tells me how to think so there!!....".

Again, putting words into my mouth. Where did I say that? I said religious background, not "I'm religious therefore its wrong". Huge difference yet again but you fail to see that.

[ange7]

lol think about it hehe is that what you said ... from the the person that gave us
"Its perfectly possible to not agree with something but at the same time not care less. " . .. WHAT??!!? brain like scrammbled eggs
"why should I have to explain myself anyway"
lol
because your arguing your point of view mate!!!! that's exactly when you need to explain your argument.

"Obviously you aren't religious in the slightest and don't come from a religious background. But thats a whole other debate."

So obvious?? lol your wrong ... so what other "views" do you hold that are just as "obvious" to you.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Tom

Again, putting words into my mouth. Where did I say that? I said religious background, not "I'm religious therefore its wrong". Huge difference yet again but you fail to see that.

your words .... your mouth
"reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right"

[Tom]

Originally posted by ange7

your words .... your mouth
"reasoning is that I come from quite a religious background and its just something I've always been told isn't right"

Which doesn't translate as what you claim. How do you know I'm even religious? How do you not know I just have those views because of my upbringing?

To be honest I just can't be bothered arguing with you now- you're twisting everything and its going around in circles.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Tom

Which doesn't translate as what you claim. How do you know I'm even religious? How do you not know I just have those views because of my upbringing?

To be honest I just can't be bothered arguing with you now- you're twisting everything and its going around in circles.

yes because I'm the bad guy that twist words around .... boo hoo ... go stick your head back in the sand.... and good luck with your stuggle with your sexual identity. I'm presuming this is why you so full on about it this topic all the time.