[Livia]

Originally Posted by Zee

I disagree with your points Dana but as always they make perfect sense and I understand where you are coming from totally. I just can't accept this at face value because when cases go to court, the judge, jury and legal teams never judge only the perpetrator of the crime. They take into account all of the factors into the case - there are at least two sides to every case and there are usually witnesses brought in on both sides. While it might be viewed as wrong to judge an underage girl for her actions because she has been sexually assaulted (in the legal sense of the term) - we don't know the reality; the people working on the case know more than we do and I have to assume that the barrister who made those comments about her being sexually experienced and predatory knew what he was talking about. Those are very strong accusations to make and he would have known it would be deemed controversial to say them. The girl is not a mannequin - she has thoughts, feelings and compulsions just like anyone over the age of consent, so I simply can't accept the logic that it doesn't matter what she said or did.

As you posted above, the judge took into account the actions of the girl (because, again, this was not a cut and dry case of a man kidnapping a girl and having his way with her) when he sentenced the man; and while I think we can all agree that the sentence is far too lenient - to me, there is a fundamental difference between a kidnap and rape; and a girl coming onto a man and "egging him on" to let her perform sex acts on him. People have talked about the Lolita stereotype - but that's exactly what this sounds like. A young girl in control of her sexuality at a young age (or who thinks she is in control) being sexual with a much older man. This girl does not sound like the kind of 13 year old girl who still plays with her Barbie dolls and is in bed by 9pm every night. I think it is completely justified to question the role of her parents/guardians in this situation. Why is she behaving in this way? How did she meet this man? Was he known to her or was he a stranger?

Great post, Zee.

[Nedusa]

No come on people I think we need to be clear here, although in the eyes of the law she is innocent and plays no part in this situation and needs to be protected by people who should know better, the reality however unpalatable is that she was not blameless and probably had had sex with numerous partners regardless of her age.

The main point of debate is that the man in question regardless of her behaviour should not have indulged her and by doing so he broke the law and must suffer the consequences...!!!

[Z]

The Prime Minister isn't likely to go against the outrage of the public though is he? I doubt much will come of this investigation if I'm being honest, I don't think the legal profession will be overly concerned by this storm in a teacup.

Perfect summary though really Nedusa

[Kizzy]

So you think the PM is just placating the public and they're not his true feeling on this subject?
The fact that it has affected the public and the CPS shows that it's far from a storm in a teacup. I would hope it changes attitudes of those working on these cases.
Suppositions like this are unhelpful to victims.
''probably had had sex with numerous partners regardless of her age.''

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So you think the PM is just placating the public and they're not his true feeling on this subject?
The fact that it has affected the public and the CPS shows that it's far from a storm in a teacup. I would hope it changes attitudes of those working on these cases.
Suppositions like this are unhelpful to victims.
''probably had had sex with numerous partners regardless of her age.''

Yes, he's the Prime Minister he's not going to alienate people by taking a controversial view point in something like this.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

Yes, he's the Prime Minister he's not going to alienate people by taking a controversial view point in something like this.

It is controversial with good reason, the controversiality surrounding the judges comments is what sparked the whole debate here.
I look forward to hearing what outcomes there are following this.

[DanaC]

Even if her behaviour was 'predatory' (which I don't accept - it mischaracterises the power differential between a 13 year old girl and a 41 year old man) using it in this context, at this point in the trial was wrong in my opinion. It was used as mitigation of the man's guilt and it effectively cast judgement on the girl. She was not on trial. It was entirely inappropriate to brand her in this way.

We are clearly not going to agree on this. It will be interesting to see what comes of the review into the matter.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Even if her behaviour was 'predatory' (which I don't accept - it mischaracterises the power differential between a 13 year old girl and a 41 year old man) using it in this context, at this point in the trial was wrong in my opinion. It was used as mitigation of the man's guilt and it effectively cast judgement on the girl. She was not on trial. It was entirely inappropriate to brand her in this way.

We are clearly not going to agree on this. It will be interesting to see what comes of the review into the matter.

Agreed. Even though you an I clearly don't agree, it's been interesting, DanaC.