[Seraphim]

No, but she has said over and over again how Jim's sexist and chauvinistic and hates her because he's never met a woman like her who's strong and independent and stands up for what she believes in and doesn't take any ****. Besides, you said nominations don't have anything to do with it.
!

I really like Luisa, but she acts in a very infantile way all the time: pouting, speaking in a baby voice; squealing and giggling; attention-seeking; being deliberately annoying; playing at sex games; making willie/boob jokes; only seeing things from her own perspective; not being able to handle criticism, etc. If someone like that turned round and told me that they were a "strong independent woman" after they'd pissed me off, I'd probably sneer too and make a scornful comment and I am not an alpha male product of an older, different generation like Jim.

She says he "gets on my tits" because he's not into her games. Linda was the one who started the accusations of misogynism and sexism, and Luisa is very easily influenced by Linda. I haven't really seen him being particularly so, but men of his generation usually are, even though they don't see it in themselves, so it's hardly surprising and not a cardinal sin. There was a guy on this forum who told me that Jim should rise above Linda's behaviour because she was menopausal and females have hormonal issues. That, for me, is patronising and sexist, and if Jim was coming out with stuff like that then I'd be absolutely in agreement with Luisa and Linda. It still wouldn't excuse their behaviour or the bitching and bullying.

I can't wait to see what happens next, but I wish Linda was out of the picture, because she has too much influence over Luisa, and she's got Jim scared to open his mouth in case he puts his foot in it.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but he's excluding himself, they're not people who he wants to spend time with, especially when they're being a bit loud so he removes himself from the group.. and I'm not criticising him for that in that it is his choice to do that but it's also something that everyone going into the house would expect..although it's always a mixed and varied house, some people by nature are more tolerant than others, Lionel was much more tolerant... but I don't think Jim is ..

It's still being excluded though? He seems to get on just fine with people on a one on one basis, he was even laughing and joking with Linda the other night; Lee came out to see him and speak to him when all the others were bitching about Jim's nomination (why weren't they bitching about Liz's nomination for Sam? Because she was there in the room with them... Sam then waited until she was with Casey, Ollie and Dappy before she ripped into Liz) - they have a group mentality and Jim has been their main target from very early on because Linda has portrayed him as an awful person (which I have no doubt he is) when in the house, Jim hasn't demonstrated or lived up to any of the bad qualities Linda has mentioned; which in my eyes makes Linda the one with the problem, not Jim. Maybe she's absolutely right about him, but he hasn't done anything in the house to deserve the torrent of abuse she's been spouting off about him in my opinion. If you know that a group of people all dislike you, why would you spend time around them? He knows they all nominated him because it was played for them all to see/hear. Why would he sit with them?

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Zee

The people who are openly laughing at the idea of Jim possibly being bullied are not being objective about this because they hate Jim so much. For the umpteenth time: I think Jim is a horrible man. But whether or not someone is a victim of bullying doesn't hinge on whether or not you like them as a person. Adults can be bullied. Anyone can be bullied. It doesn't matter what your age, post code, gender or personality is, anyone can be bullied by anyone for any reason. There is a group of people who are making a point of excluding one individual, Jim. And if you don't think that proves anything, then why are they doing it to Liz too? Because they're acting in a mob manner..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

It's still being excluded though? He seems to get on just fine with people on a one on one basis, he was even laughing and joking with Linda the other night; Lee came out to see him and speak to him when all the others were bitching about Jim's nomination (why weren't they bitching about Liz's nomination for Sam? Because she was there in the room with them... Sam then waited until she was with Casey, Ollie and Dappy before she ripped into Liz) - they have a group mentality and Jim has been their main target from very early on because Linda has portrayed him as an awful person (which I have no doubt he is) when in the house, Jim hasn't demonstrated or lived up to any of the bad qualities Linda has mentioned; which in my eyes makes Linda the one with the problem, not Jim. Maybe she's absolutely right about him, but he hasn't done anything in the house to deserve the torrent of abuse she's been spouting off about him in my opinion. If you know that a group of people all dislike you, why would you spend time around them? He knows they all nominated him because it was played for them all to see/hear. Why would he sit with them?

..you're not being excluded if you exclude yourself though...yeah, it doesn't show us anyone often going out to him..(although I'm sure they have sometimes done it..?..)...and saying, come on Jim, come and join us... but he can just as easily be with them as not be with them, that's his choice...and it is often the case that if one person consistently does exclude themselves from a group and there are people there with a tendency to 'bitch' then that's the person who will get bitched about...I do agree that there are a few who instigate the bitching, but I don't think that Linda has 'turned' people against him, I don't think that she has that power..and I don't think that it's bullying either....

[Z]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you're not being excluded if you exclude yourself though...yeah, it doesn't show us anyone often going out to him..(although I'm sure they have sometimes done it..?..)...and saying, come on Jim, come and join us... but he can just as easily be with them as not be with them, that's his choice...and it is often the case that if one person consistently does exclude themselves from a group and there are people there with a tendency to 'bitch' then that's the person who will get bitched about...I do agree that there are a few who instigate the bitching, but I don't think that Linda has 'turned' people against him, I don't think that she has that power..and I don't think that it's bullying either....

Jim hasn't always made a point of being by himself, it's only recently he's made a point of spending lots of time alone. So I would say they excluded him and he didn't bother trying to change their minds about him. Just because he's by himself shouldn't mean it's therefore acceptable to bitch about him and turn him into the house scapegoat. Yes Linda has more than valid reasons to hate him, yes Luisa and Jim do not get on; but none of the rest of them have had any serious problem with Jim in there, they're going along with Linda and Luisa because there's safety in numbers when nominating - if six people nominate Jim, he can only nominate two of them back and I'm convinced that Ollie, Sam, Lee and Casey felt safe in the knowledge that they could all nominate Jim and Liz and that Jim would pick Luisa and Linda and they'd all be safe. Sam being up was a total curveball and that is what prompted the bitter reaction to Jim and Liz's nominations. They think they have Jim all worked out and then he goes and proves them all wrong.

Linda on one of the very first nights was telling people that she hated Jim from before her time in the house. Did Jim do the same to her? No, he didn't. If I knew Linda and Jim personally I think I'd probably be on Linda's side because I would likely know the ins and outs of what happened between them, but all I see in the house is Linda holding a grudge that she won't talk about and Jim keeping out of her way because she's not interested in making amends or putting it to rest. For that reason, I think she's horrible. She could have let this go, she could have left it behind, she is the only one who is capable of putting their feud to an end because clearly she's the one upset by it, Jim isn't really that bothered, so what is she hoping to achieve by hating Jim for so long? She's obviously not moved on from it, does she not feel like making peace with the situation would help her heal? I just don't understand her motivations.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Zee

Jim hasn't always made a point of being by himself, it's only recently he's made a point of spending lots of time alone. So I would say they excluded him and he didn't bother trying to change their minds about him. Just because he's by himself shouldn't mean it's therefore acceptable to bitch about him and turn him into the house scapegoat. Yes Linda has more than valid reasons to hate him, yes Luisa and Jim do not get on; but none of the rest of them have had any serious problem with Jim in there, they're going along with Linda and Luisa because there's safety in numbers when nominating - if six people nominate Jim, he can only nominate two of them back and I'm convinced that Ollie, Sam, Lee and Casey felt safe in the knowledge that they could all nominate Jim and Liz and that Jim would pick Luisa and Linda and they'd all be safe. Sam being up was a total curveball and that is what prompted the bitter reaction to Jim and Liz's nominations. They think they have Jim all worked out and then he goes and proves them all wrong.

Linda on one of the very first nights was telling people that she hated Jim from before her time in the house. Did Jim do the same to her? No, he didn't. If I knew Linda and Jim personally I think I'd probably be on Linda's side because I would likely know the ins and outs of what happened between them, but all I see in the house is Linda holding a grudge that she won't talk about and Jim keeping out of her way because she's not interested in making amends or putting it to rest. For that reason, I think she's horrible. She could have let this go, she could have left it behind, she is the only one who is capable of putting their feud to an end because clearly she's the one upset by it, Jim isn't really that bothered, so what is she hoping to achieve by hating Jim for so long? She's obviously not moved on from it, does she not feel like making peace with the situation would help her heal? I just don't understand her motivations.

I think anyone trying seriously to would likely be driven mad trying to understand Linda Nolan or in fact her Sister Coleen when she was in.

A really great post Zee, I have said loads as to Jim and Linda on various threads this CBB series, so won't add anything here or to all you have said above and the previous posts above that one too.
Except to say that I agree with near every word of them all.

[Slevin]

shiiiiiiiiiiiiit some of em were like wheres Jim when the spread was out. i would of liked him to sit down and enjoy the food instead of coming out for 10-20 seconds instead of moaning and going in the bedroom acting like he was gonna sleep.

[Patricia4]

Zee love your posts you are spot on.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Patricia4

Zee love your posts you are spot on.

They are Patricia4, he near always makes me think about things too. Really good and fair posts.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't think that's true though..I did read through this thread this morning and thought a lot about whether it was actually bullying because I would never condone that with anyone...the thing is that Jim equally excludes himself from the group and to an extent, I think Liz does...there are also clashes of personality and often in a group there can be one person who isn't liked as well by several people because of there own personality...but that isn't bullying...I guess that I go on how it's defined in the schools I have worked in and in the first instance, someone has to feel bullied...I presume that Jim doesn't if it hasn't been shown..?...

This is a very, very worrying post from someone who works in schools. As a school pupil, I witnessed serious bullying issues: I even stepped in and stopped some of them myself. People who are being bullied will often try to act as if they don't care, and may even deny that they are being bullied because they don't want to admit it - even to themselves. One person in my school who was so badly bullied that he had to take time off school after a dart was embedded in his thigh muscle, yet he would laugh and pretend it was a joke, and I am sure he never told his parents that the injury was a result of the bullying.

Professionally, as a teacher who specialised in supporting youngsters who are struggling socially, I had to support and intervene in many, many cases of bullying. It takes all forms: from subtle things, like "accidentally" omitting someone when giving out books, or playfully cuffing younger kids around the ear (hard); bitching about people behind their backs; ganging up on people who are new, different, etc. to much more serious issues of hounding someone relentlessly with undermining comments and physically beating someone - sometimes to the point of killing them.

What is happening to Jim is typical bullying, and if you cannot see and hear that he is upset by it, then I wonder about your ability to spot it in schools where you might work. Please go to Wikipedia and read the entry on bullying. Bullying is about the behaviour of those who are doing it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

Jim hasn't always made a point of being by himself, it's only recently he's made a point of spending lots of time alone. So I would say they excluded him and he didn't bother trying to change their minds about him. Just because he's by himself shouldn't mean it's therefore acceptable to bitch about him and turn him into the house scapegoat. Yes Linda has more than valid reasons to hate him, yes Luisa and Jim do not get on; but none of the rest of them have had any serious problem with Jim in there, they're going along with Linda and Luisa because there's safety in numbers when nominating - if six people nominate Jim, he can only nominate two of them back and I'm convinced that Ollie, Sam, Lee and Casey felt safe in the knowledge that they could all nominate Jim and Liz and that Jim would pick Luisa and Linda and they'd all be safe. Sam being up was a total curveball and that is what prompted the bitter reaction to Jim and Liz's nominations. They think they have Jim all worked out and then he goes and proves them all wrong.

Linda on one of the very first nights was telling people that she hated Jim from before her time in the house. Did Jim do the same to her? No, he didn't. If I knew Linda and Jim personally I think I'd probably be on Linda's side because I would likely know the ins and outs of what happened between them, but all I see in the house is Linda holding a grudge that she won't talk about and Jim keeping out of her way because she's not interested in making amends or putting it to rest. For that reason, I think she's horrible. She could have let this go, she could have left it behind, she is the only one who is capable of putting their feud to an end because clearly she's the one upset by it, Jim isn't really that bothered, so what is she hoping to achieve by hating Jim for so long? She's obviously not moved on from it, does she not feel like making peace with the situation would help her heal? I just don't understand her motivations.

..I don't like Linda either and whatever it is that is between them, I agree should be let go of because in the end that sort of thing doesn't hurt anyone else, it only hurts yourself and I think that's very plain in Linda..that she's a very miserable person and the fact that she holds on to so much could be part of the reason..I know she's had sad things happen in her life but then she should have taken something from them, in that life is precious and short and really too short to hold onto any bad feelings, which will eat at your heart...

...him detaching and excluding himself recently..?...hmmm, my take on that or a possibility is that people don't know how they will be perceived by the public and I think none more so than Jim because of his last reality TV appearance but recently they have a very good indication with the boos for Luise and Linda and cheers for Jim, so I think that has let him know who is unpopular and I think it's fair to say that with Luisa because of how much of a party girl she is, he's detaching himself from all of that..with Linda, as you say..they do sometimes find a level to talk to each other when they're on their own but he stays away when she's socialising with the others....

..I do agree with most of what you say...(I usually do...)...but I have a slightly different perspective of it and I just don't agree that any bullying is going on...I hope it isn't but I think it's such a serious thing that if there was, we would have to see more than just the highlights and what we're shown to form that opinion....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

This is a very, very worrying post from someone who works in schools. When I was at school, I witnessed serious bullying issues: I even stepped in and stopped some of them myself. People who are being bullied will always try to act as if they don't care, and may even deny that they are being bullied because they don't want to admit it. One person in my school who was so badly bullied that he had to take time off school after a dart was embedded in his thigh muscle, yet he would laugh and pretend it was a joke, and I am sure he never told his parents that the injury was a result of the bullying. Later, as a teacher who specialised in supporting youngsters who are struggling socially, I had to support and intervene in many, many cases of bullying. It takes all forms: subtle things, like "accidentally" omitting someone when giving out books, or playfully cuffing younger kids around the ear (hard); bitching about people behind their backs; ganging up on people who are different, etc. What is happening to Jim is typical bullying, and if you cannot see and hear that he is upset by it, then I wonder about your ability to spot it in schools where you might work.

..but you are talking about actual cases of bullying though, which of course happens and is very serious but there are also often 'clashes of personality' and other circumstances of people not getting on which are not bullying...it's because bullying is so serious that we can't assume that everything is or things are that if they're not....

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but you are talking about actual cases of bullying though, which of course happens and is very serious but there are also often 'clashes of personality' and other circumstances of people not getting on which are not bullying...it's because bullying is so serious that we can't assume that everything is or things are that if they're not....

And what is happening to Jim is an actual case of bullying. I suggested that you read the Wikipedia entry. Here's an extract:

"One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment... and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets. Justifications and rationalizations for such behavior sometimes include differences of class, race, religion, gender, sexuality, appearance, behavior, strength, size or ability. If bullying is done by a group, it is called mobbing.... Bullying ranges from simple one-on-one bullying to more complex bullying in which the bully may have one or more "lieutenants" who may seem to be willing to assist the primary bully in his or her bullying activities."

[Slevin]

wiki sometimes cant be taken serious since anyone can go in there and change something. reason why it would be stupid for the most part for students to use that as a reference.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you're not being excluded if you exclude yourself though...yeah, it doesn't show us anyone often going out to him..(although I'm sure they have sometimes done it..?..)...and saying, come on Jim, come and join us... but he can just as easily be with them as not be with them, that's his choice...and it is often the case that if one person consistently does exclude themselves from a group and there are people there with a tendency to 'bitch' then that's the person who will get bitched about...I do agree that there are a few who instigate the bitching, but I don't think that Linda has 'turned' people against him, I don't think that she has that power..and I don't think that it's bullying either....

I love your posts Ammi and agree 100%

Jim Davidson has made a career out of bullying and sniggering (and not just on stage) at ethnic minorities, wheelchair users, cancer sufferers, women and
homosexuals.
Why would anyone give a rat's ass that the HM's don't fawn all over him when he makes no effort himself? Why would anyone give a rat's ass if they bitch about him? He's given out a 1000 times worse over they years and he knows it.
He beat up his wife and thumped her in the stomach with a barbell and people are sorry for him because some women are sniping at and teasing him (and he has done his fair share of that himself.)
He excludes himself from the group (men included) and they are supposed to care that they don't have the pleasure of his miserable company.

With a nasty soul like he had/has he's not exactly a poor sensitive type, is he?

Who freaking cares.

[Seraphim]

There are studies and books available, and many different articles online for anyone who is interested.

I obviously have a particular knowledge of this area, having worked with the victims of bullying for years - in mainstream education, special educational units or establishments and a psychiatric hospital.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

And what is happening to Jim is an actual case of bullying. I suggested that you read the Wikipedia entry. Here's an extract:

"One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power. Behaviors used to assert such domination can include verbal harassment... and such acts may be directed repeatedly towards particular targets. Justifications and rationalizations for such behavior sometimes include differences of class, race, religion, gender, sexuality, appearance, behavior, strength, size or ability. If bullying is done by a group, it is called mobbing."

..I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree on the 'bullying' because I don't see Jim being excluded from anything, let alone being singled out for any 'difference' in him as you've posted...he's excluded himself recently and I'm not saying that certain housemates don't bitch because they do, I can't think of many BBs where housemates don't do that in that pressure cooker environment but I still don't see anything that could be described as bullying....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

There are studies and books available, and many different articles online for anyone who is interested.

I obviously have a particular knowledge of this area, having worked with the victims of bullying for years - in mainstream education, special educational units or establishments and a psychiatric hospital.

..I bow to your personal experiences with bullying because it's a very serious thing, I only work in a primary school so physical bullying doesn't play such a big part, it's more emotional bullying and in the experiences I have had, only a relative few occasions have been actual bullying...mostly it's clashes of personality and both sides are at fault...

[Slevin]

i was bullied in 3rd grade cause i was the new kid. on the first day when it was the end of the school day i grabbed that bitch ass mo fo buy the shirt slammed him against the locker and told him not to mess with me again and that was that. just saying.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Slevin

i was bullied in 3rd grade cause i was the new kid. on the first day when it was the end of the school day i grabbed that bitch ass mo fo buy the shirt slammed him against the locker and told him not to mess with me again and that was that. just saying.

..you badass wild child.....that was the way to do it, then...if only it was that simple for everyone....but I'm glad that it didn't carry with you...

[Slevin]

the funny thing is i was alright with the dude after that. he was just being a dick trying to be hard ass for whatever reason.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Slevin

the funny thing is i was alright with the dude after that. he was just being a dick trying to be hard ass for whatever reason.

...yeah, maybe he thought that it was the thing to do to the 'new kid', I don't know really and it's hard to say whether it would have continued but I'm glad for you that it didn't, it's not something that anyone should have to experience...

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by jet

I love your posts Ammi and agree 100%

Jim Davidson has made a career out of bullying and sniggering (and not just on stage) at ethnic minorities, wheelchair users, cancer sufferers, women and
homosexuals.
Why would anyone give a rat's ass that the HM's don't fawn all over him when he makes no effort himself? Why would anyone give a rat's ass if they bitch about him? He's given out a 1000 times worse over they years and he knows it.
He beat up his wife and thumped her in the stomach with a barbell and people are sorry for him because some women are sniping at and teasing him (and he has done his fair share of that himself.)
He excludes himself from the group (men included) and they are supposed to care that they don't have the pleasure of his miserable company.

With a nasty soul like he had/has he's not exactly a poor sensitive type, is he?

Who freaking cares.

If you feel that the bullying he is experiencing now is some sort of payback for all the jokes he's made in the past, then that's your prerogative. I don't. What I do think is appropriate is what Blaize did when he met Jim Davidson.. You can read about it here:

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/201...-up-be-counted

As far as the allegations of historic crimes - people are innocent until they are proven guilty, and there are two sides to every story. A woman I know thought she had a violent husband, but actually she was more violent than he was. It was always her bullying, carping, relentless, critical behaviour which started the arguments and after she had goaded him into losing his rag, she'd act like a victim. She did it to me once: thumping me around the head in an unprovoked attack, then when I put an arm up to shield myself she accused me of hitting her. I am in no way saying that Jim Davidson is not a wife beater. I am saying that we do not know the full story, and he should be charged and given the right to a fair trial before anyone judges him.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

If you feel that the bullying he is experiencing now is some sort of payback for all the jokes he's made in the past, then that's your prerogative. I don't. What I do think is appropriate is what Blaize did when he met Jim Davidson.. You can read about it here:

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/201...-up-be-counted

As far as the allegations of historic crimes - people are innocent until they are proven guilty, and there are two sides to every story. A woman I know thought she had a violent husband, but actually she was more violent than he was. It was always her bullying, carping, relentless, critical behaviour which started the arguments and after she had goaded him into losing his rag, she'd act like a victim. She did it to me once: thumping me around the head in an unprovoked attack, then when I put an arm up to shield myself she accused me of hitting her. I am in no way saying that Jim Davidson is not a wife beater. I am saying that we do not know the full story, and he should be charged and given the right to a fair trial before anyone judges him.

..the member didn't say anything about bullying being a 'payback', just didn't agree that there was any bullying taking place, and I don't see it either...

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah, maybe he thought that it was the thing to do to the 'new kid', I don't know really and it's hard to say whether it would have continued but I'm glad for you that it didn't, it's not something that anyone should have to experience...

Bullying can and does happen in primary schools, and even in nurseries, although at the nursery level it is pretty unsophisticated.

I was bullied in primary school by someone two years below me who was physically heavier than I was, even though I was taller. For no reason at all, she started following me around every interval, pushing me around, hitting me, making nasty comments and getting her friends to gang up on me. Eventually, one day, when she had been pinching and hitting me, I pushed her away. She played the victim card and ran howling to her teacher: I got lectured and threatened in front of her class, and it was reported back to my parents, who lectured and threatened me more. I wasn't given a chance to explain or defend myself.