[thesheriff443]

Hurting people is easy getting away with it is the hard part

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Hurting people is easy getting away with it is the hard part

People get hurt - it's called life. You can't always legislate against it.

Some things need to be legislated against such as racism, sexism etc, but that is not a licence for the extreme to shut down the honest concerns of others. Some people will always try it on and try to control how others think. It's a power thing.

[user104658]

I just have to add here, I genuinely don't think that anyone on TiBB has ever been accused of racism for questioning mass immigration? It's really not about the stance, it's about the arguments used to justify that stance.

e.g.

"I'm against mass immigration because our country simply cannot economically handle the influx of people, we don't have the infrastructure" <-- Not racist in the slightest

"I'm against immigration because I'm worried about sleeper terrorists entering the country" - STILL not racist.

"I'm against immigration because I believe that most men from certain other cultures are violent and dangerous by nature and will attack and abuse people here" - getting kind of racist now



Also the idea that people don't "get to decide who is racist or not" - well, that's true, if you're talking in objective terms... but everyone is free to form their own view of someone, so it's perfectly reasonable for anyone to say to anyone else, "I find you to be racist". It's an opinion of someone... you DO get to decide that. It's really absolutely no different from saying "I find you snowflakey" or "I think you are too PC" or any other opinion that a person might have of another person. That opinion may or may not be factually accurate, but it is still "true that it is that person's opinion".

All that said; I find myself agreeing with what Ammi said earlier in the thread, and that labelling on both sides probably isn't helpful in any way. However... you can't really complain about someone calling you racist if you are happy to call them a snowflake, a "lefty", or PC... and vice versa.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just have to add here, I genuinely don't think that anyone on TiBB has ever been accused of racism for questioning mass immigration? It's really not about the stance, it's about the arguments used to justify that stance.

e.g.

"I'm against mass immigration because our country simply cannot economically handle the influx of people, we don't have the infrastructure" <-- Not racist in the slightest

"I'm against immigration because I'm worried about sleeper terrorists entering the country" - STILL not racist.

"I'm against immigration because I believe that most men from certain other cultures are violent and dangerous by nature and will attack and abuse people here" - getting kind of racist now



Also the idea that people don't "get to decide who is racist or not" - well, that's true, if you're talking in objective terms... but everyone is free to form their own view of someone, so it's perfectly reasonable for anyone to say to anyone else, "I find you to be racist". It's an opinion of someone... you DO get to decide that. It's really absolutely no different from saying "I find you snowflakey" or "I think you are too PC" or any other opinion that a person might have of another person. That opinion may or may not be factually accurate, but it is still "true that it is that person's opinion".

All that said; I find myself agreeing with what Ammi said earlier in the thread, and that labelling on both sides probably isn't helpful in any way. However... you can't really complain about someone calling you racist if you are happy to call them a snowflake, a "lefty", or PC... and vice versa.

Yes everyone is free to form their own view and state it as their opinion. But some on here don't do that - they present their opinion as if it were a proven fact.

If people don't want to be called snowflakes, lefty or PC than don't call others bigots, racist or homophobic based on very little then. It isn't rocket science. From my experience it is nearly always those on the left that start with the name-calling.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Yes everyone is free to form their own view and state it as their opinion. But some on here don't do that - they present their opinion as if it were a proven fact.

If people don't want to be called snowflakes, lefty or PC than don't call others bigots, racist or homophobic based on very little then. It isn't rocket science. From my experience it is nearly always those on the left that start with the name-calling.

Absolutely...and it's always the same small group who call you racist and start picking at you. I don't see it myself - I don't always agree with your opinions, but racist, no. You just have different views that don't fit inside the others little rigid box.
Nobody else calls you racist but those few with their 'you must see things like we do' group - think. That points to them being the problem, not you.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by jet

Absolutely...and it's always the same small group who call you racist and start picking at you. I don't see it myself - I don't always agree with your opinions, but racist, no. You just have different views that don't fit inside the others little rigid box.
Nobody else calls you racist but those few with their 'you must see things like we do' group - think. That points to them being the problem, not you.

..yeah pretty much this bit in bold..see mine was the long and yours is the short of it...darn you, jet..(I will work on those shorter posts..)...

[Ammi]

..I think what I'm trying to say..(..badly..)..is that we wouldn't put labels on our children..like you're the smart one, you're the dumb one, you're the this one, you're the that one..some positive, some negative etc..labels are just not conducive in the context of discussions and communication...although they're an 'entitlement' all of us can use, they will hinder any moving forward that was hoped for...

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah pretty much this bit in bold..see mine was the long and yours is the short of it...darn you, jet..(I will work on those shorter posts..)...

Ammi Your posts are never long enough for me, I always want more.

[DemolitionRed]

There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion or belief so long as the person posting it excepts it as testable. When a poster on here recently started a thread about transgenderism, it was obvious from the very first post that it was an opinion backed up with logical support. She didn't get angry when people strongly debated her values and so what happened there was, the thread went on for numerous days with reasonable and intellectual dialogue.

When someone posts half-baked misguided opinion's or show a negative attitude or intolerance towards certain kinds of people and when those opinions are delivered without logical support or insufficient reasoning, and come with a strong tone of prejudice; its going to be open to scrutiny. Because its an opinion and not a fact, that scrutiny is going to be at a personal level. Values are bound to be questioned and facts are going to be delivered in an attempt to change that persons thought process. If that person refuses to listen to facts and continues to deliver the same rhetoric, then inevitably people will form their own opinions of that poster and they may not be pleasant ones.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion or belief so long as the person posting it excepts it as testable. When a poster on here recently started a thread about transgenderism, it was obvious from the very first post that it was an opinion backed up with logical support. She didn't get angry when people strongly debated her values and so what happened there was, the thread went on for numerous days with reasonable and intellectual dialogue.

When someone posts half-baked misguided opinion's or show a negative attitude or intolerance towards certain kinds of people and when those opinions are delivered without logical support or insufficient reasoning, and come with a strong tone of prejudice; its going to be open to scrutiny. Because its an opinion and not a fact, that scrutiny is going to be at a personal level. Values are bound to be questioned and facts are going to be delivered in an attempt to change that persons thought process. If that person refuses to listen to facts and continues to deliver the same rhetoric, then inevitably people will form their own opinions of that poster and they may not be pleasant ones.

I could say exactly the same about you. You are intolerant of people you have judged in exactly the same way as you accuse others of. I find you very judgemental when you can't convince people to see things your way.
That is neither endearing or pleasant either.

You can question someone's 'values' but that does not give you the right to then patronize because you see them as being different to yours - something you do lot. So please less of the holier than thou act - it's trying

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I could say exactly the same about you. You are intolerant of people you have judged in exactly the same way as you accuse others of. I find you very judgemental when you can't convince people to see things your way.
That is neither endearing or pleasant either.

You can question someone's 'values' but that does not give you the right to then patronize because you see them as being different to yours - something you do lot. So please less of the holier than thou act - it's trying

You see, here's the thing. What I said didn't imply to anyone in particular. It was you who recognized yourself in my words. You then come back making accusations directly at me.

It always feels as though your looking for a fight. I've seen entire threads (that I haven't taken part in) where you are gunning for a fight. Much as I love a bit of a verbal scrap, I honestly don't have enough hours in the day to keep you amused, so on that note, I'll leave you to it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You see, here's the thing. What I said didn't imply to anyone in particular. It was you who recognized yourself in my words. You then come back making accusations directly at me.

It always feels as though your looking for a fight. I've seen entire threads (that I haven't taken part in) where you are gunning for a fight. Much as I love a bit of a verbal scrap, I honestly don't have enough hours in the day to keep you amused, so on that note, I'll leave you to it.

Recognising it was hardly difficult bearing in mind you say it to me quite a lot, which is part of the problem. I'm not stupid. If you were either a totally peaceful person who liked to avoid any kind of conflict or didn't feel I had a valid point in some things I say - you would simply avoid me. You do so half-heartedly now and again but you always have to put your two pennies worth in at some point.

You see, like me, you have your moments, so not really in a position to judge on that one either.

[Tom4784]

As for the whole white privilege thing, pointing it out is not bigoted or discrimination. I've never faced discrimination on the grounds of being a white male, having someone point out that white males don't often have experiences with being on the receiving end of discrimination is not an attack, it's pretty much a fact. I've only ever faced discrimination on accounts of being bisexual and that doesn't occur if people don't think I'm anything other than straight.

Having known what discrimination actually feels like when it comes to my sexuality, I can say with certainty that I've never had to deal with discrimination when it comes to my gender or race.

[Withano]

I was gonna comment on that post, but others have summed my thoughts on it nicely.
"One of the worst offenders" is, I mean, whatever. I have never called you a racist, I don't know you well enough to make that summary Brillo.
Also it's less to do with your boring 'mass immigration' threads, and more to do with coming into a terrorism thread and blaming muslims instantly, it's more to do with you seeing a photo of a boy and his name in an article and having a rant about his culture that you presumed you knew about. It's more to do with the underlying tone in your posts that scream ugly.
And even through all of these insane posts, which others can call racism, it's their prerogative, and it's their opinion - but I have not - the closest I got (I checked yesterday) was saying something like "it's like you want people to see you as a racist or something" and I feel well entitled in saying that because it's constant and excessive. You never defend yourself well against these allegations, you give people plentiful reasons to make these allegations, and you, yourself, right here, have saw a post about racism in general and made t about yourself on tibb.

If you don't consider yourself racist, stop giving us reason to suspect otherwise.

I will continue to not call you a racist, I don't know you personally. If I see a post that I suspect to be racist, I will call you or anyone else up on it, and you can either defend your stance or blame my ****ing agenda, I don't really care.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I was gonna comment on that post, but others have summed my thoughts on it nicely.
"One of the worst offenders" is, I mean, whatever. I have never called you a racist, I don't know you well enough to make that summary Brillo.
Also it's less to do with your boring 'mass immigration' threads, and more to do with coming into a terrorism thread and blaming muslims instantly, it's more to do with you seeing a photo of a boy and his name in an article and having a rant about his culture that you presumed you knew about. It's more to do with the underlying tone in your posts that scream ugly.
And even through all of these insane posts, which others can call racism, it's their prerogative, and it's their opinion - but I have not - the closest I got (I checked yesterday) was saying something like "it's like you want people to see you as a racist or something" and I feel well entitled in saying that because it's constant and excessive. You never defend yourself well against these allegations, you give people plentiful reasons to make these allegations, and you, yourself, right here, have saw a post about racism in general and made t about yourself on tibb.

If you don't consider yourself racist, stop giving us reason to suspect otherwise.

I will continue to not call you a racist, I don't know you personally. If I see a post that I suspect to be racist, I will call you or anyone else up on it, and you can either defend your stance or blame my ****ing agenda, I don't really care.

You do that and I will continue to say my piece to.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You do that and I will continue to say my piece to.

Literally nobody was asking you to do anything else lol. Only you decided to take a general thread about racism personally. Do you have anything to add to the topic or you wanna talk about yourself some more?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Literally nobody was ayou that sking you to do anything else lol. Only you decided to take a general thread about racism personally. Do you have anything to add to the topic or you wanna talk about yourself some more?

You do that enough yourself for some bizarre reason.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You do that enough yourself for some bizarre reason.

if this thread is anything to go by, its probably cos youre very willing to bring yourself up and talk about yourself for 3 or so pages

[DemolitionRed]

deleted

[Tom4784]

Not our TS raising the next generation of white supremacists!

[user104658]

It's basically as you say Ammi; little Scottish village where there is basically next to zero ethnic diversity. I actually don't think her school has ANY other "visible" ethnicity at all . There's a girl in her class who is something like 1/4 Native American, and she knows two kids who are 1/2 Iranian but at most their skin tone is "very light tan" and so close to white that kids most likely have no idea that there's any difference. And that's basically it! Chalk white Scottish kids otherwise.

We hadn't even really thought about it but now are trying to introduce some... Wider worldview.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's basically as you say Ammi; little Scottish village where there is basically next to zero ethnic diversity. I actually don't think her school has ANY other "visible" ethnicity at all . There's a girl in her class who is something like 1/4 Native American, and she knows two kids who are 1/2 Iranian but at most their skin tone is "very light tan" and so close to white that kids most likely have no idea that there's any difference. And that's basically it! Chalk white Scottish kids otherwise.

We hadn't even really thought about it but now are trying to introduce some... Wider worldview.

I remember back in the day when I was in primary school my mother had Pakistani friends, and their son was put into my class in school when they moved back over here from Liverpool. I claimed him as my friend and I thought I was special because I had a friend who didn't look like everyone else. I remember saying on several occasions to the other kids 'he's MY friend, not yours, my Mummy said you're not allowed to be his friend"! The other kids used to offer him sweets and stuff, they all wanted to be his friend too, but I was having none of it. I was about 7 or thereabouts.

[Jay.]

no. hate people for their personality sure or their looks but for nothing they can't change imo, i mean it's literally 2018 not 1918 anymore

[Tozzie]

people should be allowed to think what they like but in this day and age we are all being conditioned to think the same way and to accept everything and if you don't then people are made to feel as though they are a bad person. Personally I don't think that is right. Having a view other than the view that todays society thinks you should have does not make one a bad person. We are not allowing people to exercise their right to have a point of view for fear of being 'shot down' so most people who don't conform to todays society will keep their mouths shut. For us all to think the same way would mean we are brainwashed and conditioned. This world is full of offended people these days and personally I think its bloody ridiculous.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Tozzie

people should be allowed to think what they like but in this day and age we are all being conditioned to think the same way and to accept everything and if you don't then people are made to feel as though they are a bad person. Personally I don't think that is right. Having a view other than the view that todays society thinks you should have does not make one a bad person. We are not allowing people to exercise their right to have a point of view for fear of being 'shot down' so most people who don't conform to todays society will keep their mouths shut. For us all to think the same way would mean we are brainwashed and conditioned. This world is full of offended people these days and personally I think its bloody ridiculous.

There is no single minded consensus in "today's society" though, its split straight down the middle... So this doesn't really make sense. Which are you suggesting that people are expected / conditioned to conform to?

If anything, the only thing its difficult to be, is nuanced and conscious of both points of view .