[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I’m not looking for excuses - you are the one doing that. I only get called ‘racist’ by the same few people who have an agenda. It”s the hypocricy and obvious shut-down tactics that annoy me.

What agenda is that?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I’m not looking for excuses - you are the one doing that. I only get called ‘racist’ by the same few people who have an agenda. It”s the hypocricy and obvious shut-down tactics that annoy me.

I've "called you racist" in the past Brillo and it's not with an agenda or to shut you down. Do I think you are "a racist person"? I obviously don't know you well enough to make a judgement like that - although on calm consideration, I suspect you are not inherently racist for the sake of it, but rather there are certain issues that make you very angry, and that anger sometimes comes out in a "certain way". You have however, made individual posts in the past that have been, in my opinion, racist... and are arguably objectively racist (as you sometimes make assumptions about people based on their race; the definition of racism). This is just a statement of observation / opinion; it's not name calling or even designed to be a put-down, and it's certainly not driven by some other agenda other than to state that opinion, just as you are free to (and frequently do) state your own opinions.

I suppose, on the positive side, the fact that you consider being called racist "name calling" is encouraging because at the very least, it's clear that you do recognise that racism isn't good. Plenty of people are openly and proudly racist and will happily accept the term being thrown their way, which is much more troubling.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've "called you racist" in the past Brillo and it's not with an agenda or to shut you down. Do I think you are "a racist person"? I obviously don't know you well enough to make a judgement like that - although on calm consideration, I suspect you are not inherently racist for the sake of it, but rather there are certain issues that make you very angry, and that anger sometimes comes out in a "certain way". You have however, made individual posts in the past that have been, in my opinion, racist... and are arguably objectively racist (as you sometimes make assumptions about people based on their race; the definition of racism). This is just a statement of observation / opinion; it's not name calling or even designed to be a put-down, and it's certainly not driven by some other agenda other than to state that opinion, just as you are free to (and frequently do) state your own opinions.

I suppose, on the positive side, the fact that you consider being called racist "name calling" is encouraging because at the very least, it's clear that you do recognise that racism isn't good. Plenty of people are openly and proudly racist and will happily accept the term being thrown their way, which is much more troubling.

An opinion - but one given with some thought and honesty. You are entitled to it as I am mine.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

This is where the distinction lies though Brillo;

I personally have no problem at all with you criticising the religion of Islam, or any other religion. I *do* have a problem with you assuming that all or most people with a "middle eastern appearance or middle eastern sounding name" are hardcore Muslims, or necessarily Muslims at all... and you do / have done that in the past.

Muslims can be Middle Eastern, Black, White, Central Asian, South-East Asian... there are 25 million Chinese Muslims... etc.

There are also plenty of people "of middle eastern appearance" who are of other religions or non-religious - especially those who now live in Western countries. There are almost 1 billion followers of Hinduism in India and I would bet a significant amount that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from India (Hindu) and someone from Pakistan (Muslim) or the Middle East in a line-up...


So this is where your argument has always fallen flat and - you might notice - the ONLY times I have accused you of outright racism. NOT when you criticise Islam... but when you ASSUME people's culture or religion, based on how they look or where they are from, before you know anything more about them. That is racial prejudice... by simple definition... which is synonymous with racism.

[edited to add] Again though, I genuinely don't think that this is something that you do deliberately... it seems to usually be an honest conclusion that you come to. But a misguided one in my opinion. My only (I'm sure unwanted) advice would be to try to reserve judgement until there's enough information to make one without assumptions. But that's advice we could all do to take, I suppose, including myself.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I’m not looking for excuses - you are the one doing that. I only get called ‘racist’ by the same few people who have an agenda. It”s the hypocricy and obvious shut-down tactics that annoy me.

See, thats an external excuse.. 'I'm racist because other people have an agenda'... nobody else gets called it so often.. maybe theres somethig internal you could think about? Justasuggestion.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is where the distinction lies though Brillo;

I personally have no problem at all with you criticising the religion of Islam, or any other religion. I *do* have a problem with you assuming that all or most people with a "middle eastern appearance or middle eastern sounding name" are hardcore Muslims, or necessarily Muslims at all... and you do / have done that in the past.

Muslims can be Middle Eastern, Black, White, Central Asian, South-East Asian... there are 25 million Chinese Muslims... etc.

There are also plenty of people "of middle eastern appearance" who are of other religions or non-religious - especially those who now live in Western countries. There are almost 1 billion followers of Hinduism in India and I would bet a significant amount that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from India (Hindu) and someone from Pakistan (Muslim) or the Middle East in a line-up...


So this is where your argument has always fallen flat and - you might notice - the ONLY times I have accused you of outright racism. NOT when you criticise Islam... but when you ASSUME people's culture or religion, based on how they look or where they are from, before you know anything more about them. That is racial prejudice... by simple definition... which is synonymous with racism.

[edited to add] Again though, I genuinely don't think that this is something that you do deliberately... it seems to usually be an honest conclusion that you come to. But a misguided one in my opinion. My only (I'm sure unwanted) advice would be to try to reserve judgement until there's enough information to make one without assumptions. But that's advice we could all do to take, I suppose, including myself.

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

See, thats an external excuse.. 'I'm racist because other people have an agenda'... nobody else gets called it so often.. maybe theres somethig internal you could think about? Justasuggestion.

Coming from you it means nothing. I will never be a racist based on the agenda-driven opinions of that same few.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Coming from you it means nothing. I will never be a racist based on the agenda-driven opinions of that same few.

But you clearly have an issue with being perceived that way by whichever few youre talking about? It would just make more sense from my perspective to try and understand why they regularly call you that and call nobody else that instead of blaming them and their agenda for calling you that.

It just seems more likely that it is something you are doing than their agenda(?) that they have only against you?

I mean ignore this if you dont have a problem with being called it so frequently, it just seems like you do have a problem with it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

Thank you Ammi.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

But you clearly have an issue with being perceived that way by whichever few youre talking about? It would just make more sense from my perspective to try and understand why they regularly call you that and call nobody else that instead of blaming them and their agenda for calling you that.

It just seems more likely that it is something you are doing than their agenda(?) that they have only against you?

I mean ignore this if you dont have a problem with being called it so frequently, it just seems like you do have a problem with it.

I don’t need to understand their way of thinking - they are the problem. Let them self-analyize. The frequency means nothing when it comes from the same few. That in itself speaks volumes.

Done with you now.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don’t need to understand their way of thinking - they are the problem. Let them self-analyize. The frequency means nothing when it comes from the same few. That in itself speaks volumes.

Done with you now.

But you keep complaining about their way of thinking... i dont understand why you brought this up.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

100% agree Ammi

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Reactionary, it isn’t complicated - just got sick of people feeling they can call others racist according to their interpretation of their words. You invite that kind of response!

People are entitled to call people racists if that's how they feel, Brillo. There's no ifs or buts about it. You can blame the world but it's not going to change the fact that everyone is entitled to freedom of speech, it's not a right that's reserved only for a few.

People are entitled to their thoughts and words even if you don't like them, if you get accused of something that isn't true, it should be easy enough to dispel the accusation. You have accused me of being a terrorist sympathiser multiple times in the past but did I shrink away and cry about it? No I argued my corner and showed you how wrong that accusation was.

If someone accuses you of being racist, it's down to you to defend yourself.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

Absolutely agree. Dreadful, hurtful things that she doesn't deserve at all. Some people should be ashamed of themselves.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People are entitled to call people racists if that's how they feel, Brillo. There's no ifs or buts about it. You can blame the world but it's not going to change the fact that everyone is entitled to freedom of speech, it's not a right that's reserved only for a few.

People are entitled to their thoughts and words even if you don't like them, if you get accused of something that isn't true, it should be easy enough to dispel the accusation. You have accused me of being a terrorist sympathiser multiple times in the past but did I shrink away and cry about it? No I argued my corner and showed you how wrong that accusation was.

If someone accuses you of being racist, it's down to you to defend yourself.

No it isn’t - it’s up to you to prove it before you resort to personal insults. At least TS has the honesty and good grace to admit that he doesn’t Know me well enough to make such a sweeping statement.

You on the other hand see your opinion as fact and it isn’t. The burden of proof is the responsibility is on the ‘prosecution’ and if you can’t provide cast iron proof, not just your interpretation of what I have said, but definitive proof your opinion in itself does not justify public personal abuse.

[Shaun]

I voted yes in the sense that they're entitled to have such views and as such are entitled to be ridiculed for having them.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No it isn’t - it’s up to you to prove it before you resort to personal insults. At least TS has the honesty and good grace to admit that he doesn’t Know me well enough to make such a sweeping statement.

You on the other hand see your opinion as fact and it isn’t. The onus of responsibility is on the ‘prosecution’ and if you can’t provide cast iron proof, not just your interpretation of what I have said, but definitive proof your opinion in itself does not justify public personal abuse.

Right, I'm just gonna say this and I'm done discussing this part of the thread.

You are happy enough to call people remoaners and lefties, you are happy enough to accuse people of being terrorist sympathisers and that they don't like democracy if they voice their opinions about a vote that didn't go the way they wanted.

But you cry foul when people accuse you of racism, even if they justify it.

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...sh+dishes+html

You saw a name and a face and assumed derogatory things about them based on that so , as long as they aren't insulting about it, people can accuse you of racism if they so wish.

It seems to me that this is a case of you being happy enough to dish out accusations and the like but you can't take them in return. You want an uneven playing field where nobody can question your views but you are free to brand people with whatever term you like.

If you seriously want to make a point that being called a racist is an insult then you really need to drop all the terms you bust on people since if racist is considered an insult then most of your phrases are too.

It's a two way street, Brillo. It always has been, you can't complain about things that you are more than guilty of yourself.

I'm done with this branch of the discussion, it will not lead anywhere good.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

I don’t think anyone mentioned ‘loads of people’ - it has more to do with the frequency of certain types of posts from the same few.

I don’t think anyone mentioned the words ‘ganging-up’ either although you often do see the same small group of people ‘circle’ posters and their differing opinions on certain threads. People aren’t blind.

[Morgan.]

They can have the views but should keep them to themselves

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

They can have the views but should keep them to themselves

Why? Everything can be challenged. If people can’t express their opinions, in a reasonable non-attacking way - that is censorship and shut-down tactics which are not appropriate in a democracy.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Blurryface

They can have the views but should keep them to themselves

I disagree, people should share their opinion if they wish to do so and they should expect, like all opinions, to be up for criticism and to be challenged.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

..so I’m going to zip right over some of your post and completely ignore it, TS......but because I realise in reflection that discussing Brillo was unfair to her..and I apologise to her for doing that...so I’m just going to zip along from that...

...you’ve branched my thoughts out quite a bit though I have to say...you mention ‘adult discussions’...?...and then of some negative personal things which have been said to you because of personal information disclosed..(..I’m so sorry to hear that...)...the internet is a strange place in that when we do disclose about ourselves in the way of explaining etc or for other reasons or just giving out personal information etc...we’re not only disclosing to our closest friends...(..which is what we have a tendency to do in real life...)...we’re disclosing to strangers essentially and also ‘our closest enemies’...(...and most of us have those..)..also obviously to people who can become generally irritated by our opinions on any given day...anyways...

...let’s move on to ‘mansplaining’...because I have to ‘disclose’......that’s a word I haven’t heard before so you had me googling...that then led me to reading a few articles..and to cut it short a little, one article stated that ‘label’ derived from a feminist author...who at a party, had a man explain to her the meaning of her last book...so she had coined the mansplain thing ..so rather than think..oh, that’s interesting to have a male perspective which is a positive thing..she had felt it a negative and completely dismissed an ‘opinion’ by putting a label on it...You’re a man/I’m a woman/you explain and capture my attention/I explain etc and we both absorb and listen, isn’t that the way it all goes down..and ooops, along came a label called mansplaining...which is just quite bizarre...anyways, going back a bit more to the topic...I’m assuming that you didn’t feel the mansplain label type thing being something that you are and indeed an incorrect perception of you and I’m assuming that you felt quite negatively about it being attached to you...maybe being attached because of how you post, the things you post about etc...?...all of this is just assumptions for the sake of the discussion as it were...but is that not the same thing or a similar thing to attaching any ‘ist’ label...in that we don’t really know a person from their opinions and how they express those opinions in internet land in the same way we would know a person in real life and more where their opinions And beliefs derive from...I mean, yes we can only go by someone’s words that are typed, so we’re all entitled to ‘label’ with those words...but does that labelling actually progress anything in the discussion for either ‘side’...is it helpful in any way or is it hindering...like the feminist author I guess, she closed her ears from a perspective that had validity and just went in with that mansplaining thing in dismissal...hmmm, I’m not sure I’m completely on board with the thought process of ..if an ‘ism’ is accused of you, then it’s your responsibility to disprove, either...just because in that disproving or explaining as it were, that person might have to disclose something personal about themselves..maybe a childhood environment that has instilled or specific life experiences...which, then makes me think about what you have said about personal stuff and how it can be ‘used to hurt’...just the last thing to say really is that you ‘mansplain’ so well and so thoughtfully, TS.. that you often get my thoughts running off in many directions...(...the tricky bit is getting them all back together again to concentrate focus...)...

[Ammi]

...jeez, I need to learn paragraphs...

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...jeez, I need to learn paragraphs...

It’s just so good to see you back, beggar the paragraphs.x