[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit

nah, it's still about religion, so not really offtopic

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit

On the road to Damascus

[Crimson Dynamo]

and it very much was invented when the Romans thought it was a good idea that the rebellious Jews stanned a peaceful gu like baby jesus and not pine after a warrior saviour

so they put the money in and hey presto

[Twosugars]

so now Jesus was a Roman spy and saboteur?
LT, you're on fire today

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

so now Jesus was a Roman spy and saboteur?
LT, you're on fire today

What has this thread become

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

so now Jesus was a Roman spy and saboteur?
LT, you're on fire today

No

That the Roman Authorities when they allowed Christianity to be practiced and
churches were quickly built not just in Rome but throughout the empire. Then they made worshiping other gods illegal.

Before the returning Messiahs always were portrayed as war like so the clever Romans did a PR number on the Jesus cult as it was peaceful and no threat to Rome and thuis quelled a rebellion from the jews.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

so now Jesus was a Roman spy and saboteur?
LT, you're on fire today

No... the Romans backed and funded fledgling Christianity 300 years after the death (martyrdom) of Jesus because it was politically beneficial for them to do so, for various reasons. That doesn't mean Jesus was a "plant". Just that they manipulated the situation into something that they thought would be advantageous to their empire. Why else would they fund and promote Christianity?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No... the Romans backed and funded fledgling Christianity 300 years after the death (martyrdom) of Jesus because it was politically beneficial for them to do so, for various reasons. That doesn't mean Jesus was a "plant". Just that they manipulated the situation into something that they thought would be advantageous to their empire. Why else would they fund and promote Christianity?

that is what i am saying I am not saying he was anything to do with them.

unfortunately this credence from authority gave it traction and allowed for doctrine to be established and ultimately the bible to be cobbled together

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No

That the Roman Authorities when they allowed Christianity to be practiced and
churches were quickly built not just in Rome but throughout the empire. Then they made worshiping other gods illegal.

Before the returning Messiahs always were portrayed as war like so the clever Romans did a PR number on the Jesus cult as it was peaceful and no threat to Rome and thuis quelled a rebellion from the jews.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No... the Romans backed and funded fledgling Christianity 300 years after the death (martyrdom) of Jesus because it was politically beneficial for them to do so, for various reasons. That doesn't mean Jesus was a "plant". Just that they manipulated the situation into something that they thought would be advantageous to their empire. Why else would they fund and promote Christianity?

Disagree. Have you both conveniently forgotten about bloody persecution of early Christianity? People were risking lives to practice their religion. 300 years is hardly quick for any religion to establish itself. Constantine stopped persecution of all cults, not just Christanity. The fact that he was the first emperor to convert gave Christanity the final impetus in becoming officially accepted.
It's true that adopting one official religion promoted stability in the empire. But Christianity was chosen because it was already relatively widespread and popular, a position it had achieved despite the state not because of it.
wikipedia:

Despite sometimes intense persecutions, the Christian religion continued its spread throughout the Mediterranean Basin.[68]

Various theories attempt to explain how Christianity managed to spread so successfully prior to the Edict of Milan (313). Some Christians saw the success as simply the natural consequence of the truth of the religion and of the direct intervention of God. However, similar explanations are claimed for the spread of, for instance, Islam and Buddhism. In The Rise of Christianity, Rodney Stark argues that Christianity triumphed over paganism chiefly because it improved the lives of its adherents in various ways.[69] Another factor, more recently pointed out, was the way in which Christianity combined its promise of a general resurrection of the dead with the traditional Greek belief that true immortality depended on the survival of the body, with Christianity adding practical explanations of how this was going to actually happen at the end of the world.[70] Mosheim (1693–1755) saw the rapid progression of Christianity as due to two factors: translations of the New Testament and the Apologies composed in defence of Christianity.[71] Edward Gibbon (1737–1794), in his classic The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776–1789), discusses the topic in considerable detail in his famous Chapter Fifteen, summarizing the historical causes of the early success of Christianity as follows: "(1) The inflexible, and, if we may use the expression, the intolerant zeal of the Christians, derived, it is true, from the Jewish religion, but purified from the narrow and unsocial spirit which, instead of inviting, had deterred the Gentiles from embracing the law of Moses. (2) The doctrine of a future life, improved by every additional circumstance which could give weight and efficacy to that important truth. (3) The miraculous powers ascribed to the primitive church. (4) The pure and austere morals of the Christians. (5) The union and discipline of the Christian republic, which gradually formed an independent and increasing state in the heart of the Roman empire

[For Edict of Milan read Constantine announcing toleration of Christianity. The Edict of Milan gave Christianity a legal status, but did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire; this took place under Emperor Theodosius I in 380 AD.]

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Disagree. Have you both conveniently forgotten about bloody persecution of early Christianity? People were risking lives to practice their religion. 300 years is hardly quick for any religion to establish itself. Constantine stopped persecution of all cults, not just Christanity. The fact that he was the first emperor to convert gave Christanity the final impetus in becoming officially accepted.
It's true that adopting one official religion promoted stability in the empire. But Christianity was chosen because it was already relatively widespread and popular, a position it had achieved despite the state not because of it.
wikipedia:

[For Edict of Milan read Constantine announcing toleration of Christianity. The Edict of Milan gave Christianity a legal status, but did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire; this took place under Emperor Theodosius I in 380 AD.]

So you are agreeing it was given PR to quell rebellion?

Just like it was sprinkled with supernatural things to make it attractive and aspirational

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Disagree. Have you both conveniently forgotten about bloody persecution of early Christianity? People were risking lives to practice their religion. 300 years is hardly quick for any religion to establish itself. Constantine stopped persecution of all cults, not just Christanity. The fact that he was the first emperor to convert gave Christanity the final impetus in becoming officially accepted.
It's true that adopting one official religion promoted stability in the empire. But Christianity was chosen because it was already relatively widespread and popular, a position it had achieved despite the state not because of it.
wikipedia:

[For Edict of Milan read Constantine announcing toleration of Christianity. The Edict of Milan gave Christianity a legal status, but did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire; this took place under Emperor Theodosius I in 380 AD.]

Correct, Twosugars.

As for the emboldened text - I stated the same in a post on another thread and the response was that I was wrong. Thanks for the substantiation.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Correct, Twosugars.

As for the emboldened text - I stated the same in a post on another thread and the response was that I was wrong. Thanks for the substantiation.

I'm sorry I didn't notice. The cheek of some people, huh. But then we've always known Trumpet is cheeky
btw, was it Trumpet? lol

[Crimson Dynamo]

Thing is due to advances in weapons, recent wars will always have far more deaths so you cant start to compare historically

[Twosugars]

The impression I got from yours and TS's posts was that Christianity was cooked-up by the Empire from the start. I disagree.
It was only adopted by the Empire after it had grown organically and became impossible to eradicate.

Anyways, what rebellion? Jewish rebellion? You know very well that from the start majority of Jews never accepted Jesus as messiah, they were happy to be rid of him.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

The impression I got from yours and TS's posts was that Christianity was cooked-up by the Empire from the start. I disagree.
It was only adopted by the Empire after it had grown organically and became impossible to eradicate.

Anyways, what rebellion? Jewish rebellion? You know very well that from the start majority of Jews never accepted Jesus as messiah, they were happy to be rid of him.

No

Just that they promoted it as it was advantageous to them

the jews hankered after a warrior messiah who would return and kill the romans so they wanted to promote Jesus (a jew) as he posed no threat

older jews would probably have had none of it but younger ones may have

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No

Just that they promoted it as it was advantageous to them

the jews hankered after a warrior messiah who would return and kill the romans so they wanted to promote Jesus (a jew) as he posed no threat

older jews would probably have had none of it but younger ones may have

I'd have to read up on details of the political situation around the time Christianity became official religion (end of 4th century). But I'd still disagree. The main reason it was adopted was that it was inevitable (its existing spread and influence). Other things like political advantages I'd see as additional bonuses. Judea was always a rowdy province, but I doubt the Empire would have made such a radical step for the sake of one province (relatively small and poor in resources). It would have been outweighed by disadvantages of converting vast sways of pagan provinces in the West and elsewhere.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'd have to read up on details of the political situation around the time Christianity became official religion (end of 4th century). But I'd still disagree. The main reason it was adopted was that it was inevitable (its existing spread and influence). Other things like political advantages I'd see as additional bonuses. Judea was always a rowdy province, but I doubt the Empire would have made such a radical step for the sake of one province (relatively small and poor in resources). It would have been outweighed by disadvantages of converting vast sways of pagan provinces in the West and elsewhere.

this is a decent summary why it was popularised

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pa...the-Jesus-sect

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

this is a decent summary why it was popularised

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pa...the-Jesus-sect

As others here have noted, Christianity had a number of advantages over its rivals. Firstly, it was open to anyone. Slaves, freedmen, barbarians and even women were welcome, regardless of their rank or position. In a society where hierarchy was supremely dominant, a religion where everyone was equal (at least when gathered in worship anyway) was actually very appealing. This inclusiveness also meant Christianity had some strength in numbers. One of the reasons we know so little about cults like that of Mithras and Cybele is that they were not just secretive mystery sects, but they were also very small. They were highly exclusive clubs, open only to selected, respectable and usually higher ranking people and by invitation only. This made them hard to compete with a sect that literally let anyone at all join.

Secondly, Christianity's message was simple and very attractive to many people as well as openly shared and proclaimed. No secret rituals in dark temples or underground grottos were required and the teaching weren't closely guarded layers of esoteric ideas. And the key message was about fellowship and forgiveness in this life and salvation and paradise in the next - things anyone could understand and appreciate.

Thirdly, the Christian emphasis on charity, fellowship and unselfishness was also very appealing. Christians were not only renowned for their care for one another but they also took seriously the idea of looking after others, especially the poor, the widowed and the orphaned. This idea of selfless giving and charity for its own sake was foreign to Greco-Roman culture, but appealing to many nonetheless. When Julian tried to revive state paganism he recognised that it was this unselfish charity that gave Christianity an edge and he tried to incorporate it in his new form of pagan faith, though without much success.

So when we put these social and theological advantages together with Constantine's adoption of his mother's faith after seeing a vision that he attributed to the Christian god, it makes sense that Christianity won out in the end.

Thanks for confirming what my quote said. In short, Christianity was attractive and therefore became popular. Despite the state persecution for three centuries it slowly spread and became fait accompli for the state

[Livia]

Jesus Christ was a Jew and it is stated quite clearly in the New Testament that he "upholds the laws of Moses". So even though he preached love and forgiveness, he still observed the old laws including those from Leviticus. It makes me smile when Christians preach about peace and love and acceptance... it always makes me think they've not read the Torah.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Livia

Jesus Christ was a Jew and it is stated quite clearly in the New Testament that he "upholds the laws of Moses". So even though he preached love and forgiveness, he still observed the old laws including those from Leviticus. It makes me smile when Christians preach about peace and love and acceptance... it always makes me think they've not read the Torah.

lol, most have not even read the NT

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lol, most have not even read the NT

It's a bit dry, to be honest. Not much of a plot... but a spectacular ending.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

lol, most have not even read the NT

The WHOLE of the NT? Most of them have barely glanced at a bible first hand!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The WHOLE of the NT? Most of them have barely glanced at a bible first hand!

That is my experience, I have actually read the NT and good sections of that dirge the OT (well some chapters are quite good)

There are also quite a few who dont even know that it is a translation

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

That is my experience, I have actually read the NT and good sections of that dirge the OT (well some chapters are quite good)

There are also quite a few who dont even know that it is a translation

I reckon we should translate it again for a new generation actually.

"Then God had a look at what he'd done, and he saw that it wasn't that bad tbh"

I read most of the NT as a teenager because I was a pretentious little c. Was.

...

Some of it is actually a decent high fantasy story but it could definitely do with the prose being updated, it doesn't flow very well, even the more recent translations. Needs to be a bit snappier for the Netflix generation.

[Twosugars]

You're right, Livia, and so were his followers. But I also seem to remember he said that his new teachings trump the Old Testament wherever both clashed so something to that effect. I'd have to have it confirmed tho as don't remember the circumstances when he said it...