[joeysteele]

Actually it seems there's a hint of changing of attitude from Biden on this too.

Certainly too in other Nations and also the UN.

Starmer if he woke up may well have the position a growing number want to see.

It could be Sunak and co who end up on the back foot for this with his 'standing with Israel ALWAYS ' line.
No matter what occurs or what Israel does may have him on the ropes too.

There are Cons too who are thinking a full ceasefire is more appropriate to aim for now.

[bots]

we need to see how it all pans out. Leaders around the world are going to be tested over this

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

we need to see how it all pans out. Leaders around the world are going to be tested over this

Absolutely.
They are going to be tested as you say.
Including the current UK leader.

How far this war escalates is likely going to be extremely concerning in addition to how frightening this war already is anyhow.

[bots]

The problem is that it is a really mixed up conflict. Hamas are holding Israeli hostages, they could release them to help bring about a cease fire

The other thing that i haven't seen anywhere really, is the international law being broken by Hamas by using their own civilians as human shields. Where is the outcry from the Lebanon supporters for that? It's totally ****ed up

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The problem is that it is a really mixed up conflict. Hamas are holding Israeli hostages, they could release them to help bring about a cease fire

The other thing that i haven't seen anywhere really, is the international law being broken by Hamas by using their own civilians as human shields. Where is the outcry from the Lebanon supporters for that? It's totally ****ed up

They've always been using their own civilians as human shields, it's nothing new.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

They've always been using their own civilians as human shields, it's nothing new.

yeah, but they are actively doing it now, and all the free Palestine brigade completely ignore it

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

yeah, but they are actively doing it now, and all the free Palestine brigade completely ignore it

They'd say something that starts with "What choice do they have when Israel..."

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

They've always been using their own civilians as human shields, it's nothing new.

That's right

Which is why great care needs to be taken to save those innocents lives.

Because Hamas don't respect life or worldwide humanity obligations.
It has to be a very fragile and delicate thing to ensure a retaliation doesn't end up being as bad as them.

This can only really get even more horrific than now if humanity laws are discarded.
Where this ends up going as bots said, is going to test and cause massive problems for other leaders in their Countries.
For Sunak here too, despite his rather hastily produced rhetoric.

It's hard to see who can ever be the winners here.
Plus the longer it goes on, the nightmare just keeps getting worse for the innocents of Israel and Palestine.
How long can most Countries of the World just watch that happen.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The problem is that it is a really mixed up conflict. Hamas are holding Israeli hostages, they could release them to help bring about a cease fire

The other thing that i haven't seen anywhere really, is the international law being broken by Hamas by using their own civilians as human shields. Where is the outcry from the Lebanon supporters for that? It's totally ****ed up

The Gaza Strip is being turned to dust, regardless of hostages. Ask yourself this... If Hamas were known to be hiding in Israel with Israeli hostages, would the Israelis carpet bomb Israel in an attempt to kill Hamas?

You do realize that the collective punishments of civilians in Gaza is a war crime. Both Hamas and Netanyahu have and still are committing war crimes.

[arista]

[arista]

[bots]

Andy McDonald has been suspended as a Labour MP, after the party said he had made "deeply offensive" comments relating to the Israel-Gaza war.

The MP for Middlesbrough used the phrase "between the river and the sea" in a speech at a pro-Palestinian rally.

Critics of the chant argue it implicitly calls for the destruction of Israel, although pro-Palestinian protesters have contested this.

He will now sit as an independent MP, pending an investigation.

In his speech at a demonstration on Saturday, Mr McDonald said: "We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."

The phrase "from the river to the sea" refers to the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean.

Earlier this month, Home Secretary Suella Braverman urged police chiefs to consider interpreting the chant as an "expression of a violent desire to see Israel erased from the world". Israel and most Jewish groups agree.

This interpretation is disputed by some pro-Palestinian activists who say that most people chanting it are calling for an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and blockade of Gaza, not the destruction of Israel itself.

When asked about the chant in a briefing with reporters earlier, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak's spokesman said: "We understand clearly this is a deeply offensive chant to many."

A Labour spokesperson said Mr McDonald's comments at the weekend "were deeply offensive, particularly at a time of rising antisemitism which has left Jewish people fearful for their safety".

"The chief whip has suspended the Labour whip from Andy McDonald, pending an investigation," the spokesperson said.

Momentum, a left-wing Labour campaign group, branded Mr McDonald's suspension "an appalling and opportunistic attempt from the Starmer leadership to silence those speaking out in solidarity with Palestine".

The group said Sir Keir had "joined in with disingenuous smears put out by the right-wing press, which deliberately misrepresent Andy's call for peace".

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Andy McDonald has been suspended as a Labour MP, after the party said he had made "deeply offensive" comments relating to the Israel-Gaza war.

The MP for Middlesbrough used the phrase "between the river and the sea" in a speech at a pro-Palestinian rally.

Critics of the chant argue it implicitly calls for the destruction of Israel, although pro-Palestinian protesters have contested this.

He will now sit as an independent MP, pending an investigation.

In his speech at a demonstration on Saturday, Mr McDonald said: "We will not rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis and Palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peaceful liberty."

That's just stupid.

Whatever sinister meanings "from the river to the sea" has, he was clearly not using it in that context, as he included both Israelis and Palestinians in his speech.

Removing his whip was a complete overreaction. Him using the phrase may well have been a bit stupid, given its possible implications, but he wasn't using it in that way.

I understand that given recent history, the Labour party can't be seen to be letting any antisemitism go without comment, but there's a line.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

That's just stupid.

Whatever sinister meanings "from the river to the sea" has, he was clearly not using it in that context, as he included both Israelis and Palestinians in his speech.

Removing his whip was a complete overreaction. Him using the phrase may well have been a bit stupid, given its possible implications, but he wasn't using it in that way.

I understand that given recent history, the Labour party can't be seen to be letting any antisemitism go without comment, but there's a line.

They chose now to launch an "Islamophobia" month?

beggars belief

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

They chose now to launch an "Islamophobia" month?

beggars belief

It's been around for like ten years

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's been around for like ten years

timing

and no poppy

it shows a lot about the spineless labor party

[arista]

Starmer Live on BBCnewsHD
taking press questions

[arista]

This paper also posted on
the King in Kenya , thread.

BBC News Text:
[Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer's "threats"
to his shadow ministers to
"stop calling for a ceasefire in Gaza".
Keir Starmer is instead calling for a
"humanitarian pause" in Israel, the paper reports.]

[arista]

[joeysteele]

I think on conflict issues government, opposition and all Parties.
Should be free to express their real feelings and conscience on the issue and what is happening in any conflict too.

You cannot and should not make human beings programmed robots even on policies or positions that could or should be wrong.

This really is part of what's wrong about governnent, parliament and politics across the board too.
War is uniquely awful, no one should be silenced as to their own feelings, emotions and positions on it.

[bots]

there is a constant need for everything to be polarised these days. You are either for something or against something. Reality is that nothing is ever that simplistic

[arista]

[Christmas Dynasnow]

[arista]

Two Labour Council "Leaders"
call for Starmer to Resign.


SkyNewsHD Live

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Two Labour Councils
call for Starmer to Resign.


SkyNewsHD Live

2 Labour Council leaders have, NOT 2 Labour Councils.

Although I still think he hasn't got this right.
Interestingly some of the media think he hasn't either.

Where does that leave Sunak then however, as Starmer is fully in step with Sunak..
So as to those media, surely Sunak must be wrong too.