[Sticks]

Sorry, but we have to go by the forensic evidence and the inconsistencies of witness statement. The most likely scenario is what the PJ have said happened. That Madeline was killed by her own mother and her farther covered it up. The Tapas 7 helped hide the body, which was then moved 25 days later in the hire car, where the evidence of fluid from a corpse was found underneath the carpet, in amounts large enough to rule out passive transfer.

Check the crime statistics, in homicides in the homes, 90% are carried out by a close family relative.

Who is more credible, the proper police authorities or two people officially suspected of being child killers.

[J.C.]

^
You are clearly well informed on all the information that has been released from the various sources, and I would like to make a proper response to your post. Before I can make that reply I wonder if you or any other member can give me an answer to a couple of questions.

1. What is the current evidence that points to the mother being responsible rather than any other family member?

2 Was the dna sample in the car a 100% match with Maddies ?

3 How long was the car rented before the police seized it?

4. What is the main and most significant inconsistency of the witness statement?

5. What is the alleged evidence that points to the ‘Tapas 7’ assisting in the body hiding?

[Sunny_01]

J.C your post is spot on, we have to be careful not to make sweeping decisions based on poor reporting.

[J.C.]

^Thank you Sunny.

The BBC Panorama program offered an informative view of the case so far and cleared up some details. There was a lot of information and I didn’t record it, so please, anyone feel free to correct and add anything as needed.

The Car Trip; The DNA samples were taken from the floor of the rear seat and not in the boot’s tyre well as widely reported. There was a partial match, with more test results still to come. Though sources and police are not expecting the required 99% match. If not, one must consider why not?
I wonder if it has been compared with the other members of the family?

The sniffer dogs smelt death on the outside of the car and not on the inside. This could have been human or another type of animal. Again, one must consider why not on the inside if there had been a body there.

There was a camera man (friend of the Mcanns) sitting filming in the back seat. Panorama suggested that this footage may be good evidence for the Mcanns as it would suggest that whilst filming there would have had to have been a body laying at his feet, something I and many others will find utterly unbelievable.

DNA…. As far as I recall, the so called blood spot in Maddies room was not even mentioned in the program. This may have been an important oversight or otherwise suggests that it may not have been blood at all. This blood spec was potentially going to be key evidence against the Mcanns.

Witness Inconsistencies.

I found this part of the program a little confusing.

a. There is a difference between the Mcanns friend’s version of when the police were called and the police version. I believe it was a 10 minute difference and the significance is that it would have allowed a small amount of extra time to deal with a body. In the UK the police would know about this for certain and if the Portuguese can’t prove it they should be careful as it may be construed as merely an excuse for their late arrival on the scene.

b. The police also say that Maddie,s mum showed a propensity to lie in that she described Maddie as hyperactive when they can show she is not. I have no idea of the significance of this part but I would say that the definition of hyperactivity levels are subjective anyway.

c. The Mcanns friend who claims she saw a man carrying a child in pink pajamas and without shoes on seemed credible enough on the tv program and when asked about why there are some discrepancies amongst the ‘Tapas 11’ accounts on the time line she calmly pointed out that with so many people trying to recall their movements there are bound to be some inaccuracies…..I understand this as I once saw a program about how unclear witnesses can be. If I had to account for all my actions only yesterday I know I wouldn’t be anywhere near 100% accurate.


Murat's 'alleged involvement; His mother stated that he was with her at all times throughout the all important time line. She too seemed credible enough, but of course that wouldn’t necessarily rule out any involvement directly or indirectly.



I obviously have no idea of what really happened that night and my real interest is about the finding of Maddie and that losing a child is bad enough without the additional nightmare of living the rest of their lives as suspects when they could easily be innocent. I saw nothing new that was especially damming and certain things that lead me to think that the current case against them is even weaker than I thought.

[spacebandit]

Occams Razor / the statistics of victimology within families with regard to child homicide.

The simplest answer is almost always THE answer

[J.C.]

Originally posted by spacebandit
Occams Razor / the statistics of victimology within families with regard to child homicide.

The simplest answer is almost always THE answer

Medieval philosophy may go a long way but not imo when peoples livelihoods are at stake. When did you decide it was homicide, as not even the Portuguese police have put that idea forward as yet ?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by J.C.
as not even the Portuguese police have put that idea forward as yet ?

Oh yes they did, when they made the McCanns official suspects. Kate was offered a deal of confess to killing Masdeline by accident and you only do two years in jail. A very generous offer considering. A good lawyer would have gone for that plea bargin.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Sticks

Oh yes they did, when they made the McCanns official suspects. Kate was offered a deal of confess to killing Masdeline by accident and you only do two years in jail. A very generous offer considering. A good lawyer would have gone for that plea bargin.

You have to consider that they tried to apply this type of pressure to try and clear things up for themselves. Based on what was shown there is no "clear" evidence against the parents.

Like I have said before I dont like that they left their children in a vulnerable situation, however that doesnt make them killers. I dont have a clear picture in my mind about what happened as not enough detail has been released. I do yes have doubts about the parents, it would be niave not to. Also I wonder would that amount of people who they dined with be prepared to be involved in such a large cover up, I know that I would not do that for any friend.

[J.C.]

Originally posted by Sticks

Oh yes they did, when they made the McCanns official suspects. Kate was offered a deal of confess to killing Masdeline by accident and you only do two years in jail. A very generous offer considering. A good lawyer would have gone for that plea bargin.

Yes sorry , that's true, I meant that it has not yet been put to her with all the DNA results at hand or their investigation completed.(not as yet charged with an offense)
I'm not on some obsessive mission to save the Mcanns as I fully understand that there is plenty to explain. I just don't want to accuse them of something where I know very little about the truth. We will just have to wait and see how this unfolds.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by J.C.

Medieval philosophy may go a long way but not imo when peoples livelihoods are at stake. When did you decide it was homicide, as not even the Portuguese police have put that idea forward as yet ?

My original post states quite clearly why I think it is a murder case, the simplest answer, and in cases like this, sadly, the simplest answer means one thing.

All I am seeing now, on the surface. from the McCanns and a litany of dubious tabloid sources are theories and multiple sightings and mixed with straighfoward accusations against third parties.

I notice you did not comment on the livelihood of the third parties currently being maligned and flat out accused in the british press, the same press giving the McCanns a disgracefully easy ride.

I believe the child is dead. As horrific as that is.
and I believe the statistics of familial relationships with child murder victims would once again prove correct.

Although I am beginning to doubt it will happen, as the family have been exonerated by the british press with the same maligning tone you took when you asked "When did you decide it was homicide, as not even the Portuguese police have put that idea forward as yet ? "

I did not "decide", I looked at the story from multiple sides as we have seen lately on TV here, although the reporting exists only within a very narrow spectrum, from the pretence of serious reportage that still avoids the difficult questions to the disgusting backslapping one sided affairs we see in the papers and on some tv stations, and I see it as full of holes along with a host of other factors and information I have discussed on this forum before, and then I......

Formed an opinion

Sadly on a balance of probabilities - the child is dead.
and on the same balance of probabilities the child knew the killer.

I would love to be wrong - if I was I'd celebrate big style.

But lets be blunt, any open minded person knows the way this is going.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Sticks
Sorry, but we have to go by the forensic evidence and the inconsistencies of witness statement. The most likely scenario is what the PJ have said happened. That Madeline was killed by her own mother and her farther covered it up. The Tapas 7 helped hide the body, which was then moved 25 days later in the hire car, where the evidence of fluid from a corpse was found underneath the carpet, in amounts large enough to rule out passive transfer.

Check the crime statistics, in homicides in the homes, 90% are carried out by a close family relative.

Who is more credible, the proper police authorities or two people officially suspected of being child killers.

The Portuguese police credible. You have to be joking....

I have said this before. statistics about the percentages about parents being guilty are not evidence.....

I don't know if they are guilty or not. I refuse to become a witch hunter and proclaim they are when all the evidence thus far is confused and hear say. Most of which has been leaked by an irresposible Portuguese police force and added to by sensationlistic newspapers wanating to sell papers.....

[Sunny_01]

Murats Solicitor lashes out at McCanns (again)

Full story

[bananarama]

At last a day of reckoning for newspaper lies.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bananarama
At last a day of reckoning for newspaper lies.

Or a dark day for freedom of speach

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Sticks

Or a dark day for freedom of speach

A dark day for the freedom to libel and predudice the legal system

[x.Nicola.x]

I can't believe this poor child still hasn't been found . Not far off a year now since she went missing.

[Xander]

They will never find her, still think the parents did it and i don't agree with them taken action on the newspapers for them saying they did. And theres all this publicity about it when theres other kids missing out there that are no more important than madelince is but yet shes is getting the most attention

[Spike]

They will never find her, I think the parents killed her.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Spike
They will never find her, the parents killed her.

LOL

I agree. The only scenario that make sense to me is that one or both of the parents had some hand in her death. I find it frankly not believable that someone took this girl from a relatively well lit place without leaving a single shred of evidence.

[Spike]

I said the first night I saw it on the news the parent killed her I could tell by the way they were speaking to the press. I still think they have killed her if someone had of taken her she would of been found by now dead or alive.

[bananarama]

I hope you guys making unproven accusations are loaded with money!!!!!!!

[Hugo]

Originally posted by Spike
I said the first night I saw it on the news the parent killed her I could tell by the way they were speaking to the press. I still think they have killed her if someone had of taken her she would of been found by now dead or alive.

It's people like you throwing these allegations around that really make me mad. The police found blood in the car and people claim that Kate and Gerry hid her after they reported her missing....sorry but that hardly seems likely when the apartment was surrounded by press 24hrs a day and their wasn't a second for about 3 months that they weren't being hounded by the press I hardly think that is was likely they could just bundle her up in the boot of a car without getting noticed.

Also you say they would have founf the body if she was taken...why does this make any difference if she was killed by her parents why wouldn't they have found the body if they had killed her?

The bottem line is that before you go around saying they have killed her you should bother thinking a little more.

[Xander]

There has been hardly any evidence in nearly a year, I still believe that the parents were involved. I still dont agree with the massive press coverage its getting. Personally im fedup of the Mcann's trying to be in the news all the time.

[Spike]

Originally posted by tooperfect

It's people like you throwing these allegations around that really make me mad. The police found blood in the car and people claim that Kate and Gerry hid her after they reported her missing....sorry but that hardly seems likely when the apartment was surrounded by press 24hrs a day and their wasn't a second for about 3 months that they weren't being hounded by the press I hardly think that is was likely they could just bundle her up in the boot of a car without getting noticed.

Also you say they would have founf the body if she was taken...why does this make any difference if she was killed by her parents why wouldn't they have found the body if they had killed her?

The bottem line is that before you go around saying they have killed her you should bother thinking a little more.

and its people like you who make me mad. Sticking up for those parents if they didn't kill her its still their fault why she was taken and I want to know why social services haven't taken the other kids off them they should be in prison for leaving their own kids on their own at night in a foreign country. They are a disgrace! What ever happened to Madeline its their fault

[Hugo]

Originally posted by Spike

and its people like you who make me mad. Sticking up for those parents if they didn't kill her its still their fault why she was taken and I want to know why social services haven't taken the other kids off them they should be in prison for leaving their own kids on their own at night in a foreign country. They are a disgrace! What ever happened to Madeline its their fault

Trust me if you had ever been to Pria De Luz in Portugal (as I have) you would be more sympathetic. Kaye and Gerry wouldn't have thought twice about leaving them there because it is such a friendly place where you would never expect this to happen. And social services agree with me or they would have taken the other children of them.