[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I was 9 Goldheart and I told my brother on the same day it happened,so to leave it for 2 decades is strange to me,I don't think there is any need for the graphic details either .

And that's young you're only a child but you knew it was still wrong . Plus you didn't deny it and then later say yes it actually happened . I always thought it would be too upsetting to go in full details about what happened, but apparently not for these 2 guys I guess the auto cue or scripts help them recover .

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

BS , there's graphic details of sexual abuse so I'm pretty sure even if you were "groomed" you'd be scared as a child if something that graphic happened or you .

Honestly, you have literally no idea what you're talking about and it's attitudes like this that allow abuse to carry on for years / decades. The complex psychology of child grooming and abuse has been studied in detail for decades and show that these things are not only possible, but common... but "you don't believe it's possible" and "you're sure something else is true". What utter nonsense.

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Honestly, you have literally no idea what you're talking about and it's attitudes like this that allow abuse to carry on for years / decades. The complex psychology of child grooming and abuse has been studied in detail for decades and show that these things are not only possible, but common... but "you don't believe it's possible" and "you're sure something else is true". What utter nonsense.

Lying on oath ,still being friends with MJ & attending his funeral doesn't add up to me .

Plus the mother laughing ,who does that on camera ?? Very bizarre behaviour.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Lying on oath ,still being friends with MJ & attending his funeral doesn't add up to me .

Plus the mother laughing ,who does that on camera ?? Very bizarre behaviour.

Have you heard of Stockholm syndrome?.

[Christmas Lights]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Have you heard of Stockholm syndrome?.

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

I’m not making excuses, you said things didn’t add up to you, and I gave you an example of how victims can see their abusers.

[Rustic bauble]

I haven’t watched this yet. However as a child you are unaware of what is happening and wether it’s right or wrong.
We have youth players back in the 70’s who were abused at an age where they knew what was right and what was wrong..but if they complained they were threatened with an end to their career and only now do we hear of their abuse.
The parents were probably awestruck allowing their kids to stay overnight with MJ...as for the kids they were vulnerable and innocent.
Being abused by such powerful people..worshipped by many because of what they can do, just trapped so many people and made the abuse so much harder to report.
We are all so different...we all deal with things differently and a lot of strength lies in any individual who had the courage to report the abuse with so much to lose...sportsmen and women..actors and actresses. However not everyone has that courage at the time.
I know one of them swore on oath he wasn’t abused but now states he was...maybe whilst MJ was alive he still had this power over him..

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm kinda surprised at the support for him tbh: combine everything - all the things he definitely said and did, all the reports of people about what they saw and all the testimonies of those who were abused - and it's obvious that the most likely conclusion is that he did abuse young boys

Agree with this

[Christmas Lights]

And i hate how people use the excuse of "ohh well paedophiles don't abuse all kids" and "culkin was already famous" , if he was soo close to Maculay Culkin & Brett Barnes then surely something inappropriate would of happened?? .

I know predators don't abuse all kids , but surely they'd still be signs of grooming ?? and Culkin & Barnes spent ALOT of time with MJ so surely they would of seen evidence themselves that something very weird & wrong is going on??? .

wade robson and james safechuck claim he "moved onto other boys" aka Culkin & Barnes which implies MJ was abusing Culkin & Barnes yet Culkin & Barnes was never abused and they've always stood by MJ , there wasn't anything inappropriate going on with either of them . So why are we suppose to take Robson & Safechuck's word as gospel? and why do Culkin & Barne's words not matter anymore ?? .

Culkin has had alot of issues regarding addiction and family life , he pretty much stated his own dad was abusive to him . So why would he say his dad is abusive but cover for MJ ?. I don't think Culkin would protect MJ unless he genuinely knew & felt he was innocent .

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

So they WERE adults when they testified the second time. and why didn't he tell his mom when she asked him he was a grown up then.

He explained clearly that he was worried about losing his career.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

They are like robots.
It's like they are talking about what they bought at a store.

There's no passion, no emotion.
Even talking about things they say he did, he didn't like.

Even from the Mother of one so far.
All that seems to have upset them is that Michael Jackson had stopped contacting them much.

As for the underwear blood issue.
He went to get them, he says, saw blood on them and just threw them away..
Not worrying about his blood on them.

Oh come on, for goodness sake, as a child if I was bleeding even from a cut, I'd have near panicked.
I'd certainly have if blood was on my underwear.
I'd have gone straight to my parents.

No.passion, no emotion.....hmmmmmm. ..I wonder who stole that from them.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Bull.

That's what the front of the dvd cover will say...

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

And the BBC know something the rest of the world doesn't?

How ironic.

Yes to be fair they probably do

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

And i hate how people use the excuse of "ohh well paedophiles don't abuse all kids" and "culkin was already famous" , if he was soo close to Maculay Culkin & Brett Barnes then surely something inappropriate would of happened?? .

I know predators don't abuse all kids , but surely they'd still be signs of grooming ?? and Culkin & Barnes spent ALOT of time with MJ so surely they would of seen evidence themselves that something very weird & wrong is going on??? .

wade robson and james safechuck claim he "moved onto other boys" aka Culkin & Barnes which implies MJ was abusing Culkin & Barnes yet Culkin & Barnes was never abused and they've always stood by MJ , there wasn't anything inappropriate going on with either of them . So why are we suppose to take Robson & Safechuck's word as gospel? and why do Culkin & Barne's words not matter anymore ?? .

Culkin has had alot of issues regarding addiction and family life , he pretty much stated his own dad was abusive to him . So why would he say his dad is abusive but cover for MJ ?. I don't think Culkin would protect MJ unless he genuinely knew & felt he was innocent .

Women that have been clearly beaten up by their partners, when the police asked will they make a statement they say no.


There is a clear pattern between those that get abused keeping their abuse a secret and covering for the abuser.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

They enjoyed the Luxury
of it all.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

The parents are victims too.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

No.passion, no emotion.....hmmmmmm. ..I wonder who stole that from them.

They were talking about being abused they say, of lying most of their lives up to now,
Now, they say, telling all with the unpleasant details.

With no emotion or passion at all.

Like reading from a prepared script, you get more passion from a newsreader reading the news.

The relief of being able to now reveal their story, particularly as to the abuse the allege took place.
Should have opened up loads of emotion.

A bit of anger at what happened, had it been true, would have surfaced.

They came across as robotic as the first night.

I doubt passion and emotion has been robbed from them.
I'd bet probably plenty of emotion and passion came forward when the court threw out their claim on the Jackson estate.
I'd like to see any footage of when they got that news.

If they lose this appeal coming up soon now after this documentary.
I'd again bet probably, passion and emotion would surface.

Since their gambling of having this documentary done at this time only, would have failed in the purpose they, (in my view), had for it to help secure hopeful success for money from the Jackson estate.

I feel as sure as I can be, there'd be probably lots of passion, emotion and anger, if we could see it then.

I watched them in both nights of this documentary.
Very closely.
They came across as mixing truth and an invention of lies, to cloud the issue
It's a clever process but things have to add up.

For me, therein was the problem, things didn't add up.
There was no change of tone, nothing, just like they were reading notes.
Yet this is an issue they were attempting to present that has affected their lives right up to now.

For me that attempt failed and rather badly too.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.

[Twosugars]

Sad how desperate some people are for money.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

Exactly a lot of stuff about Wade was left out and them begging one of the family to be allowed to go to the funeral they sure didn't,t want to be left out of any limelight did they , the mother sleeping with the jacket and him testifying again and admitting lying under oath AGAIN and we are supposed to believe them ,buts all that is ok as long as MJ is demonised.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

And the BBC know something the rest of the world doesn't?

How ironic.

They know the lay out of Cliffs apartment

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Posting them as if they are yours, kind of says you are trying to pass them off as yours Fair enough agreeing with them, but copy and pasting randomers arguments from random places on the internet..is really strange. Especially when not putting the links or anything

Maybe its just me, but it seems so strange to have such strong feelings on a case but using other peoples posts instead of your own.

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

With no emotion or passion at all.

With all due respect Joey you focus on this a lot like it's something that's supposed to be universally agreed upon but frankly in my opinion you're completely wrong and off the mark, and don't have a good read on what would be a realistic amount of emotion to be expressing (and which emotions). I don't know if you're expecting tears, wailing and Hollywood drama? My wife works with people with serious childhood trauma every single day (yes, honestly, far worse than Wade and James' accounts which people seem to think are graphic. You have no idea.) and their emotional state is perfectly in keeping with people recounting past trauma.

They come across as anxious, bewildered and deeply, deeply sad to plenty of us. You might not be able to see it; but you need to stop stating emphatically that they do it "with no emotion" and realise that that's just your own observation and not a universal truth.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is .

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is .

Debating is a pointless process in general we do it but it don’t mean anything.