[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Surely we can all agree that it in fact IS more important to make an example of a trained soldier who has given in to bloodlust than pretty much any other incident, though? That's not to downplay other atrocities but we put military grade weaponry in the hands of soldiers and when we do so we trust them not to abuse that power. A soldier who goes rogue and commits any war crime HAS to be made an example of or we're on a very dark path. And this was on British soil which elevates it even beyond that.

So are terrorist attacks just as sickening as these killings? Yes, obviously taken as individual incidents they are, murder is murder. But it has to be accepted that pardoning soldiers has much wider implications than the incident itself. The message HAS to be "When you put on this uniform and pick up these weapons we are trusting you with a huge responsibility, with the reputation of the military and the country, and if you violate that trust there are severe consequences".

You talk about bloodlust, I call it being ****ing terrified. You've got to remember that soldiers are human beings, not plaster saints. And they die just as easily as anyone else. Warren Point, for example. Plenty died there. I refuse to believe that terrorists who kill babies, children, the elderly, who blow off the arms and legs of innocent people for their cause, are just a little more in the right than soldiers. That's just b*ll*cks.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by parmnion

This is the thing, people instantly think you want the soldier pardoned.....I bloody dont; I want them all charged and all pardoned murderers ent back to prison to serve out thier sentences....not in a cushy jail either where they run the wings..

In an ideal world they would all have been charged but the pardons given as part of the peace process were a necessary evil to save who-knows-how-many. It's murky and leaves a bad taste but it is what it is; we could have refused on principle but doing so would have cost more innocent lives.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

You talk about bloodlust, I call it being ****ing terrified. You've got to remember that soldiers are human beings, not plaster saints. And they die just as easily as anyone else. Warren Point, for example. Plenty died there. I refuse to believe that terrorists who kill babies, children, the elderly, who blow off the arms and legs of innocent people for their cause, are just a little more in the right than soldiers. That's just b*ll*cks.

It's not about being in the right at all though, it's not even that I don't agree that soldiers are likely often terrified and acting on instinct, but the point still stands that the rules of engagement must exist and the consequences of breaking those rules must be definite and severe, even if they're harsh. What is the point of the concept of military discipline if the rules are "fuzzy"?

We don't have conscription any more and haven't for a long time so making an error and facing the consequences is a known risk for anyone who chooses to join up.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In an ideal world they would all have been charged but the pardons given as part of the peace process were a necessary evil to save who-knows-how-many. It's murky and leaves a bad taste but it is what it is; we could have refused on principle but doing so would have cost more innocent lives.

They weren't innocent lives in the eyes of the IRA...

[LeatherTrumpet]

Peter Hitchens: The trial of 'Soldier F' is the final proof that the IRA won





The decision to prosecute one of the Bloody Sunday soldiers is straightforward victor’s justice.
And if you still haven’t grasped who won in the war between Britain and the Provisional IRA, perhaps
the truth will now at last sink in. All war is crime. But only the losers ever face trial for it.

Whether ‘Soldier F’ is guilty or not is a matter for the courts, and should stay that way. I have nothing
to say about it. But the long, dragging process which has led to his being charged is political, far more
a matter of power than of justice.

It is because we were the vanquished and the Provisional IRA, backed with all the might of the USA,
were the winners in 1998 that this is happening at all.

If we had won, scores of IRA and ‘loyalist’ murderers (freed as a sop to the Protestant killer gangs)
would still be doing time. And our police and courts would still be hunting down the culprits of hundreds
of terrorist crimes which will now never be punished. And there would not be the slightest chance that a
long-retired ex-paratrooper would be preparing for his trial, for actions allegedly taken while under Army discipline.

IF you are sharp-eyed, you will have noticed that the body which announced the prosecution is called the
Public Prosecution Service, not the Crown Prosecution Service. That should be a helpful hint. Britain’s
continued rule in Northern Ireland is provisional, in more senses than one.

So the Crown, the symbol of British authority which adorns every courthouse and prison (and every embassy abroad),
and is to be found on the cap-badge of every police officer and all service personnel, has already been abolished in Northern Ireland.

In the same way, our flag has been hauled more than halfway there. In Northern Ireland now,
the Union Jack can only be flown on public buildings in limited circumstances.

Everybody there knows that one day soon, the referendum promised in the 1998 surrender to the IRA will be held,
and the whole thing will be handed over to Dublin rule. For the first time since 1945, a Western
European country will surrender territory to its neighbour as a reward for successful armed aggression backed by the USA,
a fact so shocking that many still cannot comprehend it.

This handover is guaranteed by solemn treaty, by the way. There’ll be no dithering, no negotiation, no second thoughts.
The projected Irish referendum is not ‘advisory’. It will be final if it decides in favour of a united Ireland
(though it can be held again, every seven years, if it produces the ‘wrong’ result, until it comes up with the right one).

Yet millions, especially the Blair creature who signed the instrument of surrender,
are still keen to pretend that we won this nasty little war, when we lost it, as Soldier F now knows very well.

It is all part of the deep, deep sleep of Britain, from which we shall only be awakened by shock and awe,
as we finally realise that we have spent what we earned, and wantonly wrecked what we inherited from our wiser forebears.

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...e-ira-won.html

[Livia]

Peter Hitchens hitting the nail on the head. I'm a big fan of his...

[parmnion]

Ain't it funny how a country can allow hundreds and hundreds of murdering terrorit's to be set free with full pardons and no criminal convictions yet it can't allow a woman and her child back to her country of birth after she made the mistake of wanting to live in an isis controlled area under Islamic law.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Conversely, Cherie, there was more than a little animosity on the other thread and I didn't get the feeling that the two incidents were being seen as sickening as each other. In fact, there was some irritation that this story had been mentioned, when it was in context with the discussion. Both incidents were terrible. The parents of everyone who died in the two incidents deserve justice. But the families of the two young soldiers ripped apart by a baying mob of Irish people will never get justice because their murderers have been pardoned... while a soldier involved with Bloody Sunday will be made to stand trial. The whole thing needs to be handled with an even hand and right now it's a competition over who suffered most.

I agree with you