[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's the part I think people are in denial about. If there is another election, the Tories will win it. If there is another referendum, 1) the turnout will be ABYSMAL and 2) Leave will still win. If it's a multi-option referendum rather than binary, then "Remain" and "Leave With Deal" will split the popular vote and No Deal will win by default.

I'd rather not have a multi option TS on the ballot paper, if, another referendum was even considered.

I'd rather 2 choices only.
Like you I agree in a multi option votes will be split.

However talking to people who solidly want to remain, they will do so again if remain is on the ballot.

I think however a multi option would help 'with a deal' winning.

Because, when I talk to those who voted leave, who are more reasonable than the more extreme leave voters.
They dislike no deal as much as anyone else who does.
So the leave vote is more than likely to be split too.

With I think, (just picking things up from all I have chatted to), large numbers of leave voters choosing a deal option.

[Nicky91]

so 320 votes are required for the deal to be accepted at House of Commons

[Cherie]

Labour need to rebel. JC wants the PM job, that all he has ever been interested in, can’t see Labour winning a GE with him at the helm

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

so 320 votes are required for the deal to be accepted at House of Commons

Yes Nicky.

Sinn Feinn from N Ireland don't take their seats at Westminster.
Then Speaker and deputies don't vote.

This means 10/11 parliamentary votes don't happen.
So 320 gives a bare majority at the present time.

Personally, since this deal is acceptable to the EU and to the Republic of Ireland.
The fact the DUP are against it and the Farage Brexit party hate it.
Makes it an agreement, if I were an MP, I'd vote for it very reluctantly.

Johnson doesn't care about it or the Nation and certainly not for the most vulnerable of UK society..
Whatever society is now going to be in a UK plunging into the depths of extremism not thought likely since the end of the war.

Johnson has only ever wanted to be Prime Minister by any means.
Deceit, blatant lying and even political bullying.
He'll fight endlessly to stay there, saying anything to anyone but not likely meaning most of anything he says.

However, I still doubt he will win this tomorrow.
Again, however if he does, at least things move to the next long drawn out stages.

The main problem remains, in that the UK has a volatile PM whose word cannot be trusted.
This is one dangerous PM because, in my view,he has no shame to what he says or does.
A Cabinet too which is the most hard-line for many decades.
So where it all ends up over the next 5 to 10 years is anyone's guess now.

I'm never a supporter though of just getting things done for convenience.
All time, no matter what it is, should be taken to get anything as important as this.
For a Nation's and its future generations futures absolutely right and secure.

This agreement if passed by parliament.
For me is the start of a process from a vote which the UK will come to heavily regret.
However I do now doubt strongly the UK will be able to stay intact after this.
I really fear the Union of the UK will now much more likely than not be broken for good.

To some, especially too Con party members, that is a price worth paying.
I'd never be able to want or think that myself.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Yes Nicky.

Sinn Feinn from N Ireland don't take their seats at Westminster.
Then Speaker and deputies don't vote.

This means 10/11 parliamentary votes don't happen.
So 320 gives a bare majority at the present time.

Personally, since this deal is acceptable to the EU and to the Republic of Ireland.
The fact the DUP are against it and the Farage Brexit party hate it.
Makes it an agreement, if I were an MP, I'd vote for it very reluctantly.

Johnson doesn't care about it or the Nation and certainly not for the most vulnerable of UK society..
Whatever society is now going to be in a UK plunging into the depths of extremism not thought likely since the end of the war.

Johnson has only ever wanted to be Prime Minister by any means.
Deceit, blatant lying and even political bullying.
He'll fight endlessly to stay there, saying anything to anyone but not likely meaning most of anything he says.

However, I still doubt he will win this tomorrow.
Again, however if he does, at least things move to the next long drawn out stages.

The main problem remains, in that the UK has a volatile PM whose word cannot be trusted.
This is one dangerous PM because, in my view,he has no shame to what he says or does.
A Cabinet too which is the most hard-line for many decades.
So where it all ends up over the next 5 to 10 years is anyone's guess now.

I'm never a supporter though of just getting things done for convenience.
All time, no matter what it is, should be taken to get anything as important as this.
For a Nation's and its future generations futures absolutely right and secure.

This agreement if passed by parliament.
For me is the start of a process from a vote which the UK will come to heavily regret.
However I do now doubt strongly the UK will be able to stay intact after this.
I really fear the Union of the UK will now much more likely than not be broken for good.

To some, especially too Con party members, that is a price worth paying.
I'd never be able to want or think that myself.

you could also be describing the current Labour party here, where Jewish members do not feel safe, let that sink in for a minute...

how you can decry the Cons while supporting Labour is a mystery to me

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you could also be describing the current Labour party here, where Jewish members do not feel safe, let that sink in for a minute...

how you can decry the Cons while supporting Labour is a mystery to me

Frankly, I honestly 100% don't care a single thing as to what you think of myself.
Or what party I support for their policies or stand for myself.
I wouldn't lose a millisecond of sleep bothered as to that.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

so 320 votes are required for the deal to be accepted at House of Commons

Do you still want to leave Nicky ?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Frankly, I honestly 100% don't care a single thing as to what you think of myself.
Or what party I support for their policies or stand for myself.
I wouldn't lose a millisecond of sleep bothered as to that.

Just making the point :

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There is a sort of irony in the fact that it's opposition parties who claim to be trying for the best possible deal, who are going to end up triggering No Deal by default.

I'm even fairly annoyed with the SNP for being dead against it but at least in that case I understand why; the SNP can't be seen to support leaving the EU in any form, as it would play out badly in negotiations if Scotland ever does gain independence and seeks to join a customs union.

But for Labour in England - what do they think is going to be achieved at this point? Do they believe there's going to be a delay, a general election, and that the Conservatives won't win it? Living in a fantasy land... it's this deal or no deal for Brexit. That simple.

Agree with that TS, I also understand your stance as to the SNP however to their credit they have remained steadfast in their commitment to the EU which helps with their request for a second indy ref. I do hope they get it and I hope the Scots leave because like Brexit its just going to rumble on for ever unless they get the opportunity to do so

[bitontheslide]

i do think MP's need a heavy dose of reality check. People want this resolved now. They dont want the indecision of another ref. MP's said that Boris wanted to leave with no deal and so protected themselves from that eventuality with the Benn bill. However, Boris kept his word, he got a deal. MP's now have a duty to approve that deal and end all this uncertainty now. If they choose not to, they will regret it come the next election.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i do think MP's need a heavy dose of reality check. People want this resolved now. They dont want the indecision of another ref. MP's said that Boris wanted to leave with no deal and so protected themselves from that eventuality with the Benn bill. However, Boris kept his word, he got a deal. MP's now have a duty to approve that deal and end all this uncertainty now. If they choose not to, they will regret it come the next election.

Yes agree with that, I personally have wanted a second referendum for a long time, but I am now of the view it wont solve anything and will drag things on ad infinitum, we need to leave with the deal on the table, the EU is happy, the Republic are happy, and the PM is happy with it, party politics need to be set aside now, the Scottish second referendum issue is going to rumble on whether we stay in the EU or not

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Do you still want to leave Nicky ?

this deal is the by far better choice, compared to a no deal brexit

yeah i'm hoping you guys leave with a deal, and then finally more important subjects in britain can be discussed by your parliament


i find it understanding about sky news, having their own ''brexit-free'' news show this whole brexit mess has been annoying, for the last 3 years since referendum

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i do think MP's need a heavy dose of reality check. People want this resolved now. They dont want the indecision of another ref. MP's said that Boris wanted to leave with no deal and so protected themselves from that eventuality with the Benn bill. However, Boris kept his word, he got a deal. MP's now have a duty to approve that deal and end all this uncertainty now. If they choose not to, they will regret it come the next election.

Nobody voted to make us poorer, to make our food less safe, to take away the rights of our workers though. Kicking ourselves in the bollocks was not campaigned for. A terrible deal that will inevitably lead to a no deal at the end of 2020.

Politicians have a duty to defend and protect it's citizenry, not rubber stamp bad ideas into bad law.

[The Slim Reaper]

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Nobody voted to make us poorer, to make our food less safe, to take away the rights of our workers though. Kicking ourselves in the bollocks was not campaigned for. A terrible deal that will inevitably lead to a no deal at the end of 2020.

Politicians have a duty to defend and protect it's citizenry, not rubber stamp bad ideas into bad law.

At this point, I think it has to happen. To be honest, I think projecting forwards a bit, a revoke at this point could be even more of a disaster than No Deal. My general feel of the political climate is that revoke would spark a MASSIVE surge to the right that would be heavily reflected in upcoming General Elections and we could end up with a genuinely scary hardline government that would make Boris and co look like childsplay. Brexit in some form has to happen, simply for appeasement, and that's awful but it is where we are. Would a delay and better deal be better? Yes, if it was realistic, but I just can't see a path to that? It would be a delay and then exactly the same scenario with exactly the same stumbling blocks, over and over.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

How credible is this and wouldn’t parliament vote to prevent it again? also we could have a new government by then so it seems a bit of a difficult one to believe

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

At this point, I think it has to happen. To be honest, I think projecting forwards a bit, a revoke at this point could be even more of a disaster than No Deal. My general feel of the political climate is that revoke would spark a MASSIVE surge to the right that would be heavily reflected in upcoming General Elections and we could end up with a genuinely scary hardline government that would make Boris and co look like childsplay. Brexit in some form has to happen, simply for appeasement, and that's awful but it is where we are. Would a delay and better deal be better? Yes, if it was realistic, but I just can't see a path to that? It would be a delay and then exactly the same scenario with exactly the same stumbling blocks, over and over.

We're getting a hard right government after the next election regardless, as all the troglodytes will flood out from under rocks to reward them for this abortion of a pretend deal, so I'd rather not have other politicians demoralising the turnout for the left/centre by greenlighting this bs.

I'd rather leave with a deal, but this is just a means to bypass benn and get a no deal a year down the road when they can point to the fact that labour supported their deal, and all the press will dutifully follow that narrative.

When they get their government then let them openly force their no deal through, so no one is left wondering who exactly is to blame for the ensuing mess that will follow.

Appeasement when it comes to hurting the public should't equal sharing the blame when it goes tits up, which is what your suggestion will ultimately equal. Let them force through what they want when they win the GE, but they must do it alone.

There is nothing good about this deal, and agreeing to it to appease fruitloops and nutcases sets a dangerous precedent we may never come back from. You don't stop bullies by punching yourself in the face for them.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Cherie

How credible is this and wouldn’t parliament vote to prevent it again? also we could have a new government by then so it seems a bit of a difficult one to believe

The original tweet came with video of him saying it, for some reason the video didn't transfer onto tibb. This time next year, the tories will be in full power and full control. There will be nothing that can be done to stop them forcing through a no deal.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The original tweet came with video of him saying it, for some reason the video didn't transfer onto tibb. This time next year, the tories will be in full power and full control. There will be nothing that can be done to stop them forcing through a no deal.

the government of the day can negotiate whatever trade deals they see fit, that is the whole point of leaving the EU. Equally if a future government wanted stronger ties with europe, that would be up to them.

The power to strike deals lies with the government elected by the people, as it should be.

If i'm reading between the lines, i think you believe that labour are never going to be elected any time soon, and so having a hissy fit that their proposals wont be enacted

[arista]

There are many wise Labour MP's
that tomorrow will vote the Brexit Treaty
as his area they demand Brexit.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the government of the day can negotiate whatever trade deals they see fit, that is the whole point of leaving the EU. Equally if a future government wanted stronger ties with europe, that would be up to them.

The power to strike deals lies with the government elected by the people, as it should be.

If i'm reading between the lines, i think you believe that labour are never going to be elected any time soon, and so having a hissy fit that their proposals wont be enacted

Hissy fit? Dude, you had to really try and shoehorn that in there? That whole reply is a bit of an embarrassment imo.

My point was just that labour shouldn't help the tories damage the country. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone who thinks this deal isn't just a ploy to force a no-deal through eventually, needs to bookmark this page of this thread, because that's what will happen.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by arista

There are many wise Labour MP's
that tomorrow will vote the Brexit Treaty
as his area they demand Brexit.

No.
They know better than the ignorant leavers
No SURRENDER to lunacy

[The Slim Reaper]

https://politics-punked.com/2019/10/...he-brexit-job/



By James Melville.

Brexit is like the final scene from The Italian Job – a dodgy bus hanging over a cliff edge and Boris Johnson saying, “Hang on a minute lads, I’ve got a great idea”.

Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is basically a hard Brexit on steroids for Britain (not Northern Ireland) with a transition period and no hard border in Ireland. No single market. No customs union in Britain. An end to frictionless trade between the UK and 27 EU countries.

Brexiters boast that Boris Johnson’s Brexit Deal allows the UK to negotiate free trade deals around the world. They conveniently forget that his deal ends UK free trade with 27 EU countries and also UK access to EU free trade deals with 60 other countries around the world.

Boris Johnson’s Brexit Deal is just the start of a race to the bottom. Now the level playing field commitment has been ditched, it’s going to be a libertarian bonfire of employment laws, food standards, human rights, social protection and environment laws. Welcome to unregulated, isolationist Britain.

On Saturday, MPs will vote on the most important parliamentary decision in decades, but without any knowledge of what is in The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (the details). This is still a secret that has never been published. It’s like buying a house without a survey. It’s insane.

Chancellor Sajid Javid has confirmed that there will be no impact assessment on the Brexit deal. Basically, he has confirmed that the government can’t be arsed to provide any analysis and scrutiny on the most important political decision in decades.

No MP should vote through something that has huge ramifications for the country when it does not have the full legal texts and terms and conditions in place. To do so would be grossly negligent and a wilful disregard of the national interest and also in terms of what Boris Johnson previously promised.

Johnson’s Brexit deal is completely contradictory to what he said in his speech at the DUP Conference last year where he stated that no British Prime Minister should ever sign up to a customs border on the Irish Sea.

But, more than anything else, Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal is dangerous. Any Brexiter who likes this deal because it avoids a no-deal Brexit need to be careful what they wish for.

No-deal Brexiters / ERG know that if a trade deal with the EU is not reached by the end of 2020, we will end up with a no-deal Brexit after the transition period has ended. Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal not only keeps a no-deal Brexit on the table, it makes it a real possibility.

Any MP who votes for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal because they are worried about losing their seat or damaging career prospects should be ashamed of themselves. Politics should be about rigorous scrutiny and principles, not wanton self interest.

Our broadcast media are culpable in this lack of scrunity as well. They would be considered less obsequious and more rigorous if they asked less questions on “will Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal get approved by Parliament?” and instead asked more questions on “should Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal get approved by Parliament?”

So right now, Boris Johnson is like Michael Caine in the final scene of the Italian Job. The Brexit bus is hanging over the cliff edge. He has a desperate plan to try and get us out of this mess and the others on the bus are looking utterly petrified and unconvinced, but they have no alternative other than to believe him.

[Cherie]

If the plan is to no deal, Why not crash out now, people are up for it, in two years time they may be a sea change

Gove is such a back stabbing dweeb it’s hard to countenance anything that comes out of his mouth

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Cherie

If the plan is to no deal, Why not crash out now, people are up for it, in two years time they may be a sea change

Gove is such a back stabbing dweeb it’s hard to countenance anything that comes out of his mouth

Bc of Benn act

They hope they will win an election and go for no deal without enough opposition in 2020