[bananarama]

Originally posted by Shaun

What freedoms will we have lost? How about our sovereignty?

And as much as I disapprove of the xenophobic attitude our country seems to have adopted, the fact that the Conservative & Labour Parties know much more about British values, traditions and politics than some bureaucrats in Brussels do is enough to make me wary of European federalism.

Quote...How about our sovereignty?

Answer

Sovereignty is more a percieved state of mind than anything else.

In practical terms what does the new agreement lose us as individuals....

We lose so called sovereignty when we pander to other cultures. Europe although a concern is the least of our worries....

[spacebandit]

http://washingtontimes.com/article/2...814033841/1013

Back in the 'EUSSR'
By Paul Belien
December 19, 2007

Last Thursday, the heads of government of the 27 member states of the European Union convened in the Portuguese capital Lisbon to sign the EU Reform Treaty. That "Treaty of Lisbon" is almost identical to the European Constitutional Treaty, the so-called EU Constitution, which was rejected two years ago in referendums in major EU member states.

The EU rules stipulate that treaties only become effective when they have been ratified in all 27 member states. The "no" votes in the 2005 referendums killed the constitution, which would have transformed the EU from a supranational organization of 27 sovereign member states into a genuine single European federal state with 27 provinces. It was clear from the outset, however, that the peoples of the various European states were not willing to renounce their national sovereignty for a "United States of Europe."

Nevertheless, the European leaders are determined, no matter what their electorates say, to transform the EU into a USE. As Jean-Claude Juncker, the prime minister of Luxembourg, said prior to the referendums: "If the vote is yes, we will say: We go ahead. If it is no, we will say: We continue." Or as the former president of France, Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the chairman of the so-called convention, which drew up the constitution, said: "The rejection of the constitution [by the voters in referendums] was a mistake which will have to be corrected."

In order to correct the voters' mistake the reform treaty was drafted.

This treaty is a copy of the constitution, with the articles in a somewhat different order, with many additions to deliberately complicate the text and without references to a national flag or anthem.

As Mr. Giscard explained in June to the Paris leftist paper Le Monde: "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."


Or as Guiliano Amato, the foreign minister of Italy and the former vice chairman of the convention, said about the document that the European leaders signed last week: "They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception."

The EU leaders agreed that none of the member states (apart from Ireland, which is obliged to do so under its own constitution) will hold a referendum about the new treaty. Instead, the national parliaments will ratify the treaty. "There is a cleavage between people and governments," admitted French President Nicolas Sarkozy. "A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no treaty if we had a referendum in France."

[Matt]

B***ards

[Captain.Remy]

"There is a cleavage between people and governments," admitted French President Nicolas Sarkozy. "A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no treaty if we had a referendum in France."

It's exactly what I said earlier.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by sunshine30

It's exactly what I said earlier.

Only, based also on your earlier comments you seem to have misunderstood it, so you may want to hold off patting yourself on the back.

the point is that you are not supposed to understand what has happened, you are supposed to believe it will not be applied, you are supposed to believe there is no "constitution",

As Mr. Giscard explained in June to the Paris leftist paper Le Monde: "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

and I am afraid the deception has worked, your comment proves this as you think the treaty will not come into force because you believe the French people have the power to stop it. This is not so


The French would reject it if there was a referendum, I agree, as does every other commentator. As would my country

so there will be no referendum - but your country has signed up to it .

As mine has also