[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's more logical than writing any child off as unviable under 30 weeks.

Again, not what I'm saying. Stop jumping to conclusions and focus on what I'm actually writing. Getting tired of people jumping down my throat because they are failing to understand what I'm saying.

I'm not saying a fetus is completely unviable below 30 weeks. I'm just saying that I personally don't class a fetus as a life until 30 weeks because pregnancies before then aren't consistently viable. When medicine progresses to the point that severely premature babies can survive then I'll change my definition but as it stands, I don't consider a fetus below 30 weeks to be alive in the same way as a fully grown baby is, I just don't.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Again, not what I'm saying. Stop jumping to conclusions and focus on what I'm actually writing. Getting tired of people jumping down my throat because they are failing to understand what I'm saying.

I'm not saying a fetus is completely unviable below 30 weeks. I'm just saying that I personally don't class a fetus as a life until 30 weeks because pregnancies before then aren't consistently viable. When medicine progresses to the point that severely premature babies can survive then I'll change my definition but as it stands, I don't consider a fetus below 30 weeks to be alive in the same way as a fully grown baby is, I just don't.

The point is you are incorrect, medicine already is showing that 26-30 week babies have a high chance of survival and are consistently. You are behind on the science, people are not jumping down your throat for the sake of it, we have read what you have written and just called you out because you’re incorrect and we are educating you

It’s crazy you do not class a foetus a life under 30 weeks that is just crazy to me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

The point is you are incorrect, medicine already is showing that 26-30 week babies have a high chance of survival. You are behind on the science, people are not jumping down your throat for the sake of it, we have read what you have written and just called you out because you’re incorrect and we are educating you

Except I'm not, it's an opinion and until successful birthrates of severely premature fetuses below 30 weeks match that of full term babies, it's a valid one whether you like it or not.

You have nothing to teach me, so don't try.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Rawdogging doesn't make you a medical expert either, TS.



Whether I have kids or not shouldn't make my opinions any less valid. Also I never said that a fetus is a bundle of cells until full term. Getting quite tired of people suddenly forgetting how to read competently so they can get a dig in instead of arguing against what I'm saying.

It doesn't make your opinions invalid but it does make them less valid; ignoring lived experience entirely is foolish and arrogant. It's true of BLM, its true of feminist issues, and it's true here.

Your opinions on racial issues are less valid than a black person's, I assume you can concede that, so yes... Your opinions on gestation are less valid than those of a woman who has been pregnant.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Rawdogging doesn't make you a medical expert either, TS.

Whether I have kids or not shouldn't make my opinions any less valid. Also I never said that a fetus is a bundle of cells until full term. Getting quite tired of people suddenly forgetting how to read competently so they can get a dig in instead of arguing against what I'm saying.

I honestly don't think people are not getting what you are saying and are arguing against what you're saying. I personally don't agree that a fetus under 30 weeks is not alive. Under 20-24 weeks I agree they have little chance of survival but over that, as the stats show, a high percentage survive with little or no birth defects. Whether that is with medical intervention or not doesn't really matter in my opinion

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It doesn't make your opinions invalid but it does make them less valid; ignoring lived experience entirely is foolish and arrogant. It's true of BLM, its true of feminist issues, and it's true here.

Your opinions on racial issues are less valid than a black person's, I assume you can concede that, so yes... Your opinions on gestation are less valid than those of a woman who has been pregnant.

Are you comparing medical knowledge, the kind of things you have to have years of training and education to practice, is the same as recognising social inequality? Really? I've had plenty of operations and medical procedures but it doesn't make me knowledgeable about the ins and outs of those procedures.

When have I ever said that my opinions on racial inequality as as valid as someone who has suffered it? You're just trying to stuff words down my throat now.

At the end of the day, my point is simple, my definition of a fetus being truly alive is 30+ weeks, when fetuses can survive as consistently as full term babies, then I'll change my mind but we're not at that point yet.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I honestly don't think people are not getting what you are saying and are arguing against what you're saying. I personally don't agree that a fetus under 30 weeks is not alive. Under 20-24 weeks I agree they have little chance of survival but over that, as the stats show, a high percentage survive with little or no birth defects. Whether that is with medical intervention or not doesn't really matter in my opinion

But my opinion is my opinion and nothing that's been said really contradicts what I'm saying. Does a fetus below 30 weeks have as much chance as surviving as a baby does after that point? No.

Science develops at a rapid rate, go back a few decades and premature babies had a far higher rate of mortality then they do now. I've no doubt that my mind will change as things progress but at this current moment in time, for the sake of argument. I don't consider a fetus under 30 weeks to be classed as alive in the same way a full term baby is. I just don't.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But my opinion is my opinion and nothing that's been said really contradicts what I'm saying. Does a fetus below 30 weeks have as much chance as surviving as a baby does after that point? No.

Science develops at a rapid rate, go back a few decades and premature babies had a far higher rate of mortality then they do now. I've no doubt that my mind will change as things progress but at this current moment in time, for the sake of argument. I don't consider a fetus under 30 weeks to be classed as alive in the same way a full term baby is. I just don't.

Fair enough...as you say it is your opinion. I can't agree and nothing you have said has convinced me that your point it right either so we are at an impasse. Its an emotive subject and as I said in an earlier post as a parent I may be biased by by the time I was that pregnant my child was very much alive to me. After 24 weeks a funeral and registering the death is a legal requirement and therefore to me that indicates the law and medical fields recognise a "life".

Anyway....its been interesting to read your thoughts, even if we cant agree.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Are you comparing medical knowledge, the kind of things you have to have years of training and education to practice, is the same as recognising social inequality? Really? I've had plenty of operations and medical procedures but it doesn't make me knowledgeable about the ins and outs of those procedures.

When have I ever said that my opinions on racial inequality as as valid as someone who has suffered it? You're just trying to stuff words down my throat now.

At the end of the day, my point is simple, my definition of a fetus being truly alive is 30+ weeks, when fetuses can survive as consistently as full term babies, then I'll change my mind but we're not at that point yet.

I didn't say that the opinion of a woman who has been pregnant is more valid than that of a doctor or a biologist... But you're not either of those? You're a male layperson, your opinion is less valid than that of someone who has experienced a pregnancy, whose opinion is not medical or scientific.

... But to be fair, I doubt you'll find a biologist who would attempt to argue that a fetus of ANY gestation is not alive. I've literally never heard the claim that life that isn't self sustaining "isn't life" in any form, and you don't have to be a biologist for that one, basic high school biology will do, or even reading a dictionary.

Life

the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

A fetus is a distinct cellular entity that consumes in order to grow and is in a state of continuous cell division. That's literally the only qualification for "being alive". It's made up entirely of human DNA, thus it is human life.

Again, that doesn't mean it is "a meaningful person" in the philosophical sense and that's the part that's open to debate and interpretation. That a fetus is a form of life is simple biological fact.

[Tom4784]

I also want to say, since it seems like people are confusing me with my idea of 30 weeks = Truly alive with me defending late term abortions, judging from the likes of Kizzy's question earlier.

I've said very little on abortion limits other than the vast majority of abortions happen within the first 10 weeks which is true. My personal view is that abortion limits is dependant on the medical advances we've made and that it's ultimately not my right to decide when a woman should or should not have an abortion. If pushed for an answer, I'd say twenty weeks at most but then again, it's not something I have a right to dictate.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except I'm not, it's an opinion and until successful birthrates of severely premature fetuses below 30 weeks match that of full term babies, it's a valid one whether you like it or not.

You have nothing to teach me, so don't try.

The survival rate is roughly 90% of pregnancies that are premature at 27%. You have been caught out on being uneducated and having an unsupported opinion and are continuing to go ahead with it rather than admit to being wrong

Yep those 90% born at 27 weeks old are not lives! It’s dezzys opinion

I have a lot I could educate you on as someone who studied developmental biology at degree level, your opinion is proven misinformed and incorrect by science. Therefore it’s not an opinion in my eyes but just you having misinformed, uneducated views on an area you know little about. A 20-30 week foetus is considered alive, in fact any foetus is alive, but a 20-30 week foetus is definitely considered alive in terms of being almost fully developed for life outside the womb, and like many others have proven to you the majority of 24+ week foetus will survive If born premature. It’s ridiculous to say these foetus are not alive because theyre situated inside the mother

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn't say that the opinion of a woman who has been pregnant is more valid than that of a doctor or a biologist... But you're not either of those? You're a male layperson, your opinion is less valid than that of someone who has experienced a pregnancy, whose opinion is not medical or scientific.

... But to be fair, I doubt you'll find a biologist who would attempt to argue that a fetus of ANY gestation is not alive. I've literally never heard the claim that life that isn't self sustaining "isn't life" in any form, and you don't have to be a biologist for that one, basic high school biology will do, or even reading a dictionary.



A fetus is a distinct cellular entity that consumes in order to grow and is in a state of continuous cell division. That's literally the only qualification for "being alive". It's made up entirely of human DNA, thus it is human life.

Again, that doesn't mean it is "a meaningful person" in the philosophical sense and that's the part that's open to debate and interpretation. That a fetus is a form of life is simple biological fact.

I never said I was a medical professional, pay attention. My whole point was having experience of a medical procedure or progress is not the same as being an expert on it. You're still trying to push something onto me that I've never said.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I also want to say, since it seems like people are confusing me with my idea of 30 weeks = Truly alive with me defending late term abortions, judging from the likes of Kizzy's question earlier.

I've said very little on abortion limits other than the vast majority of abortions happen within the first 10 weeks which is true. My personal view is that abortion limits is dependant on the medical advances we've made and that it's ultimately not my right to decide when a woman should or should not have an abortion. If pushed for an answer, I'd say twenty weeks at most but then again, it's not something I have a right to dictate.

As far as I'm aware later abortions are rare and can't be done in normal abortion clinics either

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

The survival rate is roughly 90% of pregnancies that are premature at 27%. You have been caught out on being uneducated and having an unsupported opinion and are continuing to go ahead with it rather than admit to being wrong

Yep those 90% born at 27 weeks old are not lives! It’s dezzys opinion

I have a lot I could educate you on as someone who studied developmental biology at degree level, your opinion is proven misinformed and incorrect by science. A 20-30 week foetus is considered alive, in fact any foetus is alive, but a 20-30 week foetus is definitely considered alive in terms of being almost fully developed for life outside the womb, and like many others have proven to you the majority of 24+ week foetus will survive If born premature

I have a lot I could educate you on because I'm an astrophysicist with doctorates in a plethora of sciences and I currently live on Mars where I study it's landscapes and have BBQs with martians.

Saying you are something and trying to shut down someone by saying that alone is pointless online. There's no reason to believe you and you only really seem to parrot what other people are saying. Your first responses were highly emotional and then you jumped on TS's post and have been riding on it since.

There's absolutely no reason to believe you. Rely on your arguments, not who you say you are. Don't call people uneducated when it's clear that TS is carrying this argument for you.

I don't believe fetuses to be alive in the same way as full term babies are, no one has really been able to argue against my justification which is why TS seems content in shoving words down my throat and you're going on about how educated you are and how dumb I apparently am when you could basically be copying and pasting TS' posts.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I never said I was a medical professional, pay attention. My whole point was having experience of a medical procedure or progress is not the same as being an expert on it. You're still trying to push something onto me that I've never said.

But I wasn't the one who brought medical professionals into it at all... My ONLY point originally was that your opinion, as a male layperson, is less valid than the opinion of a woman who has been pregnant. You countered that by saying "a woman who hasn't been pregnant isn't a medical professional!" but... I never said that they were. I said that they have more valid experience of the issue than you. Whilst we're talking of "shoving words down each others throats".

[Liam-]

I think anything after 24 weeks should be solely for medial complications

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But I wasn't the one who brought medical professionals into it at all... My ONLY point originally was that your opinion, as a male layperson, is less valid than the opinion of a woman who has been pregnant. You countered that by saying "a woman who hasn't been pregnant isn't a medical professional!" but... I never said that they were. I said that they have more valid experience of the issue than you. Whilst we're talking of "shoving words down each others throats".

Well, no, that was aimed more at you for thinking you are automatically an expert on this because you're a parent because you tried to silence my view by basically saying I wasn't entitled to it because I don't have kids. I never specificied pregnant women, I was only ever talking about you.

Nah, you're still responsible for trying to shove a whole load of bull**** down my throat, trying to make out that I said all fetuses were just a bunch of cells when you know I never said that and all that terribly tonedeaf **** trying to compare this to racial inequality.

[DouglasS]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except I'm not, it's an opinion and until successful birthrates of severely premature fetuses below 30 weeks match that of full term babies, it's a valid one whether you like it or not.

You have nothing to teach me, so don't try.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I have a lot I could educate you on because I'm an astrophysicist with doctorates in a plethora of sciences and I currently live on Mars where I study it's landscapes and have BBQs with martians.

Saying you are something and trying to shut down someone by saying that alone is pointless online. There's no reason to believe you and you only really seem to parrot what other people are saying. Your first responses were highly emotional and then you jumped on TS's post and have been riding on it since.

There's absolutely no reason to believe you. Rely on your arguments, not who you say you are. Don't call people uneducated when it's clear that TS is carrying this argument for you.

I don't believe fetuses to be alive in the same way as full term babies are, no one has really been able to argue against my justification which is why TS seems content in shoving words down my throat and you're going on about how educated you are and how dumb I apparently am when you could basically be copying and pasting TS' posts.

I mean someone who has studied developmental biology at degree level does make them more informed when posting about pre mature births/foetus life.. that’s like saying an online doctor/GP over Babylon/some other service to diagnose your medical condition is Pointless!! And why not just knock on neighbour Karen’s door instead as she will have an opinion of what that bruise/lump is!

I use my phone and don’t own a laptop so I do not have time to spend hours posting all the evidence why you are incorrect and misformed, but you are correct TS has already done a jolly good job of that

I am calling you uneducated on this matter.. because you clearly are.. I mean the forum can see that from reading your posts. Calling it an ‘opinion’ to get away from that does not count.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Good argument.

What's to argue ..you are plain and simply wrong

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by parmnion

What's to argue ..you are plain and simply wrong

If you can't qualify why i'm wrong, your input is pointless. This is a debate after all.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

I mean someone who has studied developmental biology at degree level does make them more informed when posting about pre mature births/foetus life.. that’s like saying an online doctor/GP over Babylon/some other service to diagnose your medical condition is Pointless!! And why not just knock on neighbour Karen’s door instead as she will have an opinion of what that bruise/lump is!

I use my phone and don’t own a laptop so I do not have time to spend hours posting all the evidence why you are incorrect and misformed, but you are correct TS has already done a jolly good job of that

I am calling you uneducated on this matter.. because you clearly are.. I mean the forum can see that from reading your posts. Calling it an ‘opinion’ to get away from that does not count.

The issue of abortion is as much philosophical one as medical when it comes to things like abortion rights. And my opinion, like others is backed up by stats. I consider life to begin at birth and birth tends to be most successful around 30+ weeks mark. When science and technology can guarantee the same level of success for severely premature babies then i'll change my mind but you nor anyone else has offered up anything compelling enough to change my mind.

You can claim to be anything you want but I just don't believe you, rely on your supposed knowledge, not bleating on about how you're a student and this supposedly makes you instantly correct.

Everything on this forum is an opinion, for someone who likes to call people uneducated, it says a lot you don't understand that.

[Ninastar]

It depends how far along but yes, I think so.

There’s so many women (couples actually) who find out they are pregnant and when they lose the baby/bundle of cells/fetus/whatever you wanna call it and it is absolutely heartbreaking for them

If I’m ever lucky enough to get pregnant, it is one of my greatest fears. I wouldn’t care if I was 3/4 weeks or 30+... it would absolutely kill me

Obviously the further along, the more heartbreaking it would be... but god, I couldn’t imagine anything worse

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Again, not what I'm saying. Stop jumping to conclusions and focus on what I'm actually writing. Getting tired of people jumping down my throat because they are failing to understand what I'm saying.

I'm not saying a fetus is completely unviable below 30 weeks. I'm just saying that I personally don't class a fetus as a life until 30 weeks because pregnancies before then aren't consistently viable. When medicine progresses to the point that severely premature babies can survive then I'll change my definition but as it stands, I don't consider a fetus below 30 weeks to be alive in the same way as a fully grown baby is, I just don't.

Chances of survival following preterm birth
Medical advances mean that we are getting better at treating preterm babies but the chances of survival still depend on gestational age (week of pregnancy) at time of birth.

Less than 22 weeks is close to zero chance of survival
22 weeks is around 10%
24 weeks is around 60%
27 weeks is around 89%
31 weeks is around 95%
34 weeks is equivalent to a baby born at full term.

I am focusing on what your saying... its rubbish.


https://www.tommys.org/our-organisat...rth-statistics

[Toy Soldier]

]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nah, you're still responsible for trying to shove a whole load of bull**** down my throat, trying to make out that I said all fetuses were just a bunch of cells when you know I never said that and all that terribly tonedeaf **** trying to compare this to racial inequality.

Nahh, having read back the first page, all of this started when you claimed that a fetus can't support its life outside of the womb until ready to be born, which is false, and that "pretty much for the entirety of" the period where abortion can be chosen (24 weeks) a fetus is a bundle of cells (when that's only even vaguely true for about 10-12 weeks). You then tried to wind that back and say that you meant the period when most abortions take place - before 10 weeks - but that's not what you said.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

a fetus until it's ready to be born or delivered, cannot support it's own existence outside of the womb. For pretty much the entirety of the period when someone can choose to have an abortion, the fetus is just an bunch of cells and nothing more.

All I did was question these two demonstrably dubious statements... Not even aggressively... It was a perfectly civilised post in disagreement... And you responded by calling me a "show off" and complaining that I had "called you a liar".

Its just not any part of a reasonable debate, but I think the vast majority of people can see that for themselves so I'm not going to dwell on it. The thread's here to be read. In my opinion, you respond with defensiveness and aggression LONG before it's warranted and on a hair trigger, but you do you I suppose. I don't imagine it feels very good.

[Cal.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Well, no, that was aimed more at you for thinking you are automatically an expert on this because you're a parent because you tried to silence my view by basically saying I wasn't entitled to it because I don't have kids. I never specificied pregnant women, I was only ever talking about you.

Nah, you're still responsible for trying to shove a whole load of bull**** down my throat, trying to make out that I said all fetuses were just a bunch of cells when you know I never said that and all that terribly tonedeaf **** trying to compare this to racial inequality.

!!!!!!!!!!!