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Old 18-09-2020, 03:23 PM   #101
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People who agree with JK demand to be listened to and respected for their opinions, in the same breath as saying anyone who disagrees is either sexist, too emotional, doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or is a man so has no right, if a conversation is actually genuinely wanted, then it needs to go both ways, ‘we have to discuss it no matter how offensive it might be’ ‘umm, I think you’re offensive so I’m going to dismiss everything you say’
Which part/s of what she said do you disagree with?
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Old 18-09-2020, 03:23 PM   #102
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I didn't say anyone who disagrees is sexist. I'm commenting on the radical so-called activists who do nothing but throw misogynistic slurs at her and other women with valid concerns. In those cases it seems disagreement = transphobia but misogyny = fine.
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Old 18-09-2020, 03:38 PM   #103
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Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.
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Old 18-09-2020, 03:39 PM   #104
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So your response to feeling like you can't have an opinion without being branded a certain way by some people is to justify doing the same to others by making out that they are anti-feminist if they disagree with someone with an XX chromosome?



JK got herself into the position she's in by doubling down when she got criticism from a minority until she alienated more and more people, and even then it hasn't even affected her since her book sales are up. It's pretty much the same deal when Piers Morgan was up on his high horse about gender, it never affected him either.



As I said before, she had some good points to begin with, I have concerns about self-IDing and gender specific spaces for people who have yet transitioned but she's taking it further than that in response to some initial criticism she had to begin with. When you let criticism warp your message, what you're trying to say gets lost.
I don't recall making out that anyone was anti feminist for disagreeing with a woman? So no justification needed.

I replied directly to a comment relating to female oppression by quoting a line from the handmaids tale which is about female oppression....
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Old 18-09-2020, 03:58 PM   #105
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I don't recall making out that anyone was anti feminist for disagreeing with a woman? So no justification needed.
Your previous post was in response to a post I made saying that we were erring towards dangerous territory to which you responded that your scenario is more dangerous, despite really being the same view on opposing sides, thus it's pretty much justification by downplaying it.
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Old 18-09-2020, 04:07 PM   #106
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Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.
Thankfully there's no evidence that JKR is any of those
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Old 18-09-2020, 04:23 PM   #107
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Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.
If we're going by such loose definitions of those words as the one used to deem Rowling a transphobe, they'd have to remove 3/4 of the books from the shelves.

On the plus side, they'd have an exciting rebranding opportunity! They could rename the shop "The Echo Chambre". Sadly, it would probably be quite popular with some demographics.
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Old 18-09-2020, 04:51 PM   #108
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If we're going by such loose definitions of those words as the one used to deem Rowling a transphobe, they'd have to remove 3/4 of the books from the shelves..
If they want. Each book shop owner to their own.
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Old 18-09-2020, 05:02 PM   #109
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If they want. Each book shop owner to their own.
That's fair but let's not pretend that you weren't indicating it as a "good idea".
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Old 18-09-2020, 05:08 PM   #110
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It is a bit odd how people seem to think that a purity test needs to be passed in order for someone to be worthy of making money from.
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Old 18-09-2020, 05:11 PM   #111
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Yeah who knew you had to have the same political views and the same universal opinions as someone to purchase something from them/their company.
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Old 18-09-2020, 06:35 PM   #112
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...this is an interesting article as well, if anyone wishes to read etc...it’s another longer one so I’ll just leave it here...the reason that I’m sharing some of these articles is that I’m reading up a bit on the history of transgender atm, not something that I was terribly up on in any depth..and so far as specifically connecting any views of JK Rowling which have become so controversial etc...?...I’m also trying to find articles that present ‘both sides now’ more...regather than having specific leanings...and which I’m finding particularly provocative of thought...


...just off topic, one of the things that stood out to me when I was reading a ‘brief history of transgender’ in one article...?...and discussing more ‘modern transgender’ as named in the article...when referring, for instance, to a male to female specific person...the female is named, obviously...but the ‘Male name’ is still there also in brackets...and that feels so sad with such an ‘historical’ journey which was so difficult for them...


...anyway this is an article by someone who is part of the trans community who also grew up as a huge Harry Potter../..JK Rowling fan...


How trans 'Harry Potter' fans are grappling with J.K. Rowling's legacy after her transphobic comments

Hannah Yasharoff USA TODAY
Published 12:37 PM EDT Aug 4, 2020
To a younger Kacen Callender, "Harry Potter" was a lifeline.

Growing up with mental health struggles, Callender clung to a source of comfort: "The constant hope of 'Well, everything sucks right now, but if I can just wait until the next book comes out...': That's what I would tell myself," Callender, 30, recalled to USA TODAY.

Through the years, “Harry Potter,” the boy wizard book series turned cultural juggernaut, has served as a source of comfort and empowerment for countless readers of all ages around the world, including members of the LGBTQ community. Feel like an outsider? So did the boy who lived.

Series author J.K. Rowling made headlines earlier this summer with multiple posts online voicing opinions on the trans community that conflated sex with gender and defended ideas suggesting that changing one's biological sex threatens her own gender identity.

Rowling continued to double down even after the posts were widely perceived as transphobic, misinformative and hurtful, ultimately amplifying a broader conversation that had already been happening less publicly within the “Harry Potter” fandom: How do you grapple with the person who created something you love and felt comforted by expressing sentiments that directly contradict your existence?

What's a TERF and why is 'Harry Potter' author J.K. Rowling being called one?


Now an award-winning author of multiple young adult books including "Felix Ever After," Callender (whose pronouns are they/them) is a professional storyteller largely thanks to Rowling’s influence – a painful realization now for a transgender person who grew up loving “Harry Potter.”

"I'm scared to think about the people who might have loved 'Harry Potter' and thought about it the same way and then to see their idol come out and say that they're not worthy," said Callender, noting that suicide rates are higher for trans and non-binary children than cisgender children "because we're so isolated and ostracized." Cisgender refers to those whose gender identity matches the one they were assigned at birth.

A 2019 CDC study found that trans youth made up 2% of high school students and more than a third of them attempt suicide.

"I do think that giving her any sort of platform is potentially life-threatening and dangerous. ... Her rhetoric continues to push this incorrect thought and conversation around transgender people," Callender added.

Rowling’s spokesperson declined comments to USA TODAY.

AJ Solomon is another fan to whom "Harry Potter" meant everything as a kid.

"I knew without a doubt that my whole life would not just revolve around 'Harry Potter,' but was kind of defined by it," Solomon, 21, recalled. "There was never any question. My backpack was 'Harry Potter.' When I had an art assignment, I would automatically try to make it about ('Harry Potter')... When I started to realize I was trans, a lot of the solace I took in 'Harry Potter' was that if I was magic, I could just use a spell to lower my voice."


Upon rereading the series, some "Potter” fans over the past few years have perceived offensive connotations within the story they love. The books' goblins, creatures with pointed noses who control the wizarding world's banks, are widely read as having roots in anti-Semitic folklore. There are also several scenes that can be read as transphobic, including more than a few in which a male character wearing a dress is played for laughs – a trope that prominent trans voices in entertainment such as actress Laverne Cox widely concur threaten the well-being and safety of real-life trans women.

“What's so hilarious about that? This is the painful moment for me," Callender said.

'I get goosebumps': Laverne Cox on Netflix transgender history doc, landmark Supreme Court decision

As fans move to become more critical consumers, many have found comfort in making up their own ideas about what that world might look like, be it writing fan fiction for online audiences or daydreaming about how the wizarding world might be more inclusive than the real one.

“What would it look like to be trans with magic?” Solomon sometimes wonders with fellow fans. “What would transitions look like? ... Are there charms to make people forget your old name and pronouns? Is it something that they don't talk about because they don't need to because it's just solved so easily?”

“Potter,” at this point, has a life completely beyond its creator, not unlike the “Star Wars” franchise, notes Michael Bronski, an LGBTQ historian, activist and Harvard professor.

With the book series complete, the rest of the franchise (multiple theme parks, stage play and prequel films, to name a few) doesn’t really need Rowling and therefore isn’t necessarily doomed by her public perception. So if many fans have moved on from the author one way or another, how will Rowling be remembered?

“I think it depends on what her investment in this is,” Bronski said. “If (Rowling) is really invested in being beloved, this might be bad for her. But if she's happy being an independent person who can have an opinion (and) doesn't care who criticizes her, she's set.”

There are some fans who don’t find Rowling’s comments to be a deal breaker. But the many who do are left wondering how they can love something created by someone they can no longer support. Some, like Solomon, have decided to focus on the communities “Harry Potter” has allowed them to build rather than the source material. Others, like Callender, want to help ensure that YA books have proper representation for younger readers to help them feel less alone.

Callender’s latest book, “Felix Ever After,” stars a “Black, queer trans (teenager) afraid he isn’t worthy of love because he’s ‘one marginalization too many,’” Callender explains. Beyond "Felix," the past few years have brought standout YA novels starring trans and non-binary characters, including "Mask of Shadows" by Linsey Miller, "Cemetery Boys" by Aiden Thomas, "Anger is a Gift" by Mark Oshiro and "I Wish You All the Best" by Mason Deaver.

"It's time for my self-healing and to move on,” Callender said. “Part of that is to focus on the amazing number of trans stories that are coming out. ... I feel like we have a moment now to say, 'Forget her, screw her, and let's focus on our own beautiful stories and making sure that those end up in the hands of young readers who need them.'”




https://eu.usatoday.com/story/entert...ks/5471834002/
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Old 18-09-2020, 06:37 PM   #113
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...I have to say that before Our Vicky would say it on here...I had no idea what TERF was../...had never heard it said before...(..that’s just a by the by, not relevant at all.)...
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Old 18-09-2020, 07:59 PM   #114
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"I do think that giving her any sort of platform is potentially life-threatening and dangerous. ...


Get a grip dude. If people are gonna do something stupid because they hear that women are the only people who can menstruate, they frankly shouldn't be outside of a psych unit anyway.
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Old 18-09-2020, 08:01 PM   #115
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That's fair but let's not pretend that you weren't indicating it as a "good idea".
Oh right. So you just assumed my post had a different context to the way it was literally written. Jumped on your high horse and got a bit mad.

Good chat.
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Old 19-09-2020, 09:38 AM   #116
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...I think that it’s really sad that atm, females don’t seem to be able to get to a place of discussion with this../...a starting place, type thing...All females that is, both born and transitioned...for female to male transitioned people for instance, the safeguarding would be more focused on that person to feel ‘safe in a shared bathroom space with a potentially hostile Male who would be deemed as physically stronger...’....so the same issue but in reverse...?....whether a specific male body would actually indeed be stronger, it’s also for much time been a conditioning of ‘born female’ that, that is so...so it couldn’t not really be felt that a vulnerability wouldn’t be there because it just would and that really does have to have some understanding/consideration as well..we all want equality but we want to be safe, we want all of us to feel safe...because born females can’t help that they had that society conditioning of being more vulnerable to ‘Male strength’...I mean, society still seems to have a mocking thought process to things like domestic violence when it’s the female who is violent, rather than the male...because some things are so instilled from birth and specific to born gender, that so much has to be understood and considered...it’s all far too complex...I do believe that many females, both trans and born are on the same page and are supportive allies of each other...but sadly we’re just not progressing very much because of that ‘battleground’ that it seems to have become and seems difficult to get beyond...
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Old 19-09-2020, 09:57 AM   #117
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...and it is undoubtedly a ‘battleground’ situation atm...Niamh, who has always consistently been an ally in every way to LGBT, having...’well that’s not very ‘transgender friendly’ stuff ...and Liam and Dezzy, who have always consistently been allies in every way to Feminism, having...’well that’s not very feminism friendly’ stuff...when we all strive for the same thing of equality, not a ‘sister against sister’, type situation...which it all seems to more be atm because progression needs to address some things in discussions first, I think...
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Old 19-09-2020, 11:58 AM   #118
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...and it is undoubtedly a ‘battleground’ situation atm...Niamh, who has always consistently been an ally in every way to LGBT, having...’well that’s not very ‘transgender friendly’ stuff ...and Liam and Dezzy, who have always consistently been allies in every way to Feminism, having...’well that’s not very feminism friendly’ stuff...when we all strive for the same thing of equality, not a ‘sister against sister’, type situation...which it all seems to more be atm because progression needs to address some things in discussions first, I think...
I think this is a big part of the issue though and a large part of why the conversation is such a non-starter. There's this generally held starting point that if anyone has concerns around the trans rights debate, why, they "must be" one of those standard issue, right leaning, "PC gone mad" bigotted types who don't understand anything LGBT related and are just puffing hot air without good cause because they're hateful -phobes. So there's a tendency for the same tactics to be used that have always been used in such situations against unreasonable, unthinking bigotted people.

Except if you then take a look at it - it just doesn't fit. A lot of the people with very well expressed, very well developed questions and concerns quite clearly do NOT fall into that category at all - many are clearly center or left leaning, many who are generally highly supportive of social justice issues, and so when the same old "you are just a bigot" tactics are used they simply fall flat... it's a starting point that simply doesn't exist and there's no justification for, and if justification or reasoning is requested, it's largely radio silence because really there's very little to point to.

The flipside, I suppose, is that as the "battle rages on" people forget to sympathise and understand that transpeople are frustrated with the situation which of course IS a sad situation. I think it should be possible to empathise with transpeople on this while still holding firm to the basic fact that "unfortunately, things are not that simple, we can't just say that everything is going to be roses over night and there are concerns that have to be looked into". That can be met with an angry response but I do understand why that is. These conversations must make exceptionally hard reading.

Until a point is reached of one side saying "We have concerns that need to be taken seriously, but we can see that your situation is difficult too" and the other saying "We would like things to be progressing faster for us but we're willing to hear your concerns without going on the attack" - I just don't see any progress being made at all - and actually a very real possibility of significant back-sliding.
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Old 19-09-2020, 07:33 PM   #119
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Their shop, their rules, it not too much different from the bakers who wouldn’t bake a wedding cake, if that’s what’s makes them comfortable then go for it, expect a lot of women will take their custom elsewhere though
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Old 19-09-2020, 07:37 PM   #120
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Their shop, their rules, it not too much different from the bakers who wouldn’t bake a wedding cake, if that’s what’s makes them comfortable then go for it, expect a lot of women will take this custom elsewhere though
Yeah from what I can see most people who think its a silly thing to do aren't demanding they be forced to sell it or anything if a person wants her books they will buy them elsewhere
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Old 19-09-2020, 09:03 PM   #121
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To be fair I never did see what was wrong with refusing to make cakes for gay weddings? Anyone should be able to refuse custom from any person for any person for any reason tbh
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Old 19-09-2020, 10:52 PM   #122
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Their shop, their rules, it not too much different from the bakers who wouldn’t bake a wedding cake, if that’s what’s makes them comfortable then go for it, expect a lot of women will take their custom elsewhere though
Except it's quite different.

Not stocking a book is not the same as refusing someone service on the grounds of their sexuality. Not stocking a book because you think the author's a transphobe is not discrimination, refusing to serve someone because of their sexuality certainly is, as the courts agreed. The difference between the two examples is that one opposes discrimination, while the bakery attempted to enforce it.
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Old 19-09-2020, 10:53 PM   #123
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Except it's quite different.

Not stocking a book is not the same as refusing someone service on the grounds of their sexuality. Not stocking a book because you think the author's a transphobe is not discrimination, refusing to serve someone because of their sexuality certainly is, as the courts agreed. The difference between the two examples is that one opposes discrimination, while the bakery attempted to enforce it.
‘Because you think’ v religious beliefs...okay
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Old 19-09-2020, 11:05 PM   #124
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‘Because you think’ v religious beliefs...okay
Religious beliefs is no excuse for bigotry, especially when it comes to Christianity in which people pick and choose what parts of the bible to follow. If someone chooses to hate the gays but draw the line at eating seafood or wearing different kind of fabrics in the same outfit then they are a homophobe looking for justification for their hatred.

Also, your comparison is still pretty terrible. One was a confirmed case of discrimination, the other is choosing not to stock a book in store (but having it available to order). One is denying service based on the customer's sexuality, the other is choosing not to stock a book by someone the owners believes to be a bigot.

It's just not going to work as a valid comparison, Cherie.
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Old 19-09-2020, 11:23 PM   #125
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The thing is, if they still stock books by actual demonstrable bigots from throughout history (and I'm assuming they must, because the list of squeaky clean authors isn't going to be very long, especially if you go back more than 50 years) then I can't see the refusal to stock JK Rowling books as anything but bandwagon virtue signalling and a bit of free publicity grabbing. Which is a bit cynical and offensive in itself, in many ways.
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