[Denver]

Originally Posted by Swan

He handled it poorly, he still is. But to blame him for every single covid death is ridiculous. You look to a leader to lead, of course, but we see it every day, people not taking precautions, gathering with other people, not wearing masks, going on holidays. You can put blame on Trump, Johnson and any other leader out there, but at the end of day a lot of the covid deaths could probably have been avoided. Sometimes common sense wins!

You can blame them as they make the rules, if you say they dont have to wear a mask why would they? Trump refused a full on lockdown when he should have done one and went to rallies where no asks were worn and to top if off he used his racism behind it to label in the chinese flu or kung flu or anything else he every used

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Denver

You can blame them as they make the rules, if you say they dont have to wear a mask why would they? Trump refused a full on lockdown when he should have done one and went to rallies where no asks were worn and to top if off he used his racism behind it to label in the chinese flu or kung flu or anything else he every used

Since when did even half the people even listen to Trump though? Knowing the risks, if you have access to a TV/Internet it's plain to see, if Trump says 'wear a mask, don't wear a mask' would you have listened to him? Of course not! You would have made your own conscious decision using your own common sense. I don't care for Trump, but he's either 'your' president or he isn't. You can't refuse to accept him, protest against him, then when cry foul when you allow him to 'lead you'. It was handled badly, but my god have people been careless, sometimes we need to take responsibility for ourselves.

As for him calling it 'chinese flu' i mean, it's reaching a bit to call him racist for that. It did originate in China after all. China's appalling attitude towards animals and those 'wet markets' should be highlighted (not saying he's highlighting that, his attitude towards sharks disgusts me).

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Swan

Since when did even half the people even listen to Trump though? Knowing the risks, if you have access to a TV/Internet it's plain to see, if Trump says 'wear a mask, don't wear a mask' would you have listened to him? Of course not! You would have made your own conscious decision using your own common sense. I don't care for Trump, but he's either 'your' president or he isn't. You can't refuse to accept him, protest against him, then when cry foul when you allow him to 'lead you'. It was handled badly, but my god have people been careless, sometimes we need to take responsibility for ourselves.

As for him calling it 'chinese flu' i mean, it's reaching a bit to call him racist for that. It did originate in China after all. China's appalling attitude towards animals and those 'wet markets' should be highlighted (not saying he's highlighting that, his attitude towards sharks disgusts me).

it first came from China, but the main epicentre of the virus for Europe is Northern Italy

americans i don't know, either of travelling to china, or chinese travelling to the US i think, or from americans who went to european countries with risk zones

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

I'll remember that when you call me wrong for having an opinion that differs from yours.

Causing havoc and disrupting innocent lives just because an election/vote didn't go the way you think it should is another thing entirely though.

By all means do, and then I'll gladly tear that to shreds by pointing out to you (again) that opinions are not free from criticism and criticising an opinion is not the same as saying it's wrong or invalid. Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone else has the right to criticise an opinion.

If you think I've ever denied your right to an opinion or outright called it wrong (only if you're factually wrong) then you aren't understanding what I'm writing at all. Spend more time trying to understand what I write than trying to slander me with your constant misunderstandings.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Like Ammi said, it's one thing to say 1/2 years into a 4 year term 'okay this isn't working out, things are worse' then voicing your opinion. It's another however to just straight up refuse to accept a democratic voting process where the person who won the most votes wins (here anyway, i know the US isn't as simple as that). Democracy works both ways, we are free to vote for whoever we like, and not vote for who we don't. The December elections, Brexit, people voted, the most votes won, democracy right there. Yet people who voted in another direction refuse to accept, right or wrong, that's the opposite of democracy.

Firstly, Donald Trump actually lost the popular vote by three million votes, I believe, it was down to different states have different ratios of voting impact that basically gave him the win.

Who is refusing the democratic process? You simply don't understand that people can be unhappy with the way a vote goes, hell, Trump himself (and Brexiters back in 2016's referendum actually) denounced the vote as crooked when the odds were against him. The act of voicing that disapproval is not going against the spirit of democracy, it's simply voicing an opinion and the acts of impeachment and such are just branches of democracy.

You simply don't understand what democracy is.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

By all means do, and then I'll gladly tear that to shreds by pointing out to you (again) that opinions are not free from criticism and criticising an opinion is not the same as saying it's wrong or invalid. Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone else has the right to criticise an opinion.

If you think I've ever denied your right to an opinion or outright called it wrong (only if you're factually wrong) then you aren't understanding what I'm writing at all. Spend more time trying to understand what I write than trying to slander me with your constant misunderstandings.

That's fine, i'll gladly tear that to shreds too (again) by pointing out the exact same.

If only you'd do the same!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

That's fine, i'll gladly tear that to shreds too (again) by pointing out the exact same.

If only you'd do the same!

incorrectly repeating what I said without the correct context is not a good response. it's just a 'I know what you are, but what am I?' response that's best left on the playground.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Firstly, Donald Trump actually lost the popular vote by three million votes, I believe, it was down to different states have different ratios of voting impact that basically gave him the win.

Who is refusing the democratic process? You simply don't understand that people can be unhappy with the way a vote goes, hell, Trump himself (and Brexiters back in 2016's referendum actually) denounced the vote as crooked when the odds were against him. The act of voicing that disapproval is not going against the spirit of democracy, it's simply voicing an opinion and the acts of impeachment and such are just branches of democracy.

You simply don't understand what democracy is.

here anyway, i know the us isn't that simple

Being unhappy is one thing, outright refusing to accept it is another. Do you respect that more people voted conservative in December, hence they won, so protesting in the streets against it wasn't at all democratic?

I understand perfectly what democracy is.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

incorrectly repeating what I said without the correct context is not a good response. it's just a 'I know what you are, but what am I?' response that's best left on the playground.

Your ego in thinking you 'tear me to shreds' required a petty, ridiculous response quite honestly. I shouldn't sink to your level though, granted.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Being unhappy is one thing, outright refusing to accept it is another. Do you respect that more people voted conservative in December, hence they won, so protesting in the streets against it wasn't at all democratic?

I understand perfectly what democracy is.

Except you don't because you confuse people not being happy with how a vote turns out with them wanting to actively overturn it.

Protesting is always democratic, it's a right of ours to do so. There is no way that a protest can't be undemocratic, since it's a branch of democracy in itself, as people letting their voices be heard is never a bad thing. You may (and are free) to disagree with what they are saying, but protests, in their very essence are democratic procedures, and the protests in December weren't to actually overturn the vote but to voice displeasure at it, which is perfectly acceptable in a country with democracy and free speech.

You continue to prove why you don't understand what democracy entails, you're arguing against the voicing of opposing opinions, that's undemocratic as ****.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Your ego in thinking you 'tear me to shreds' required a petty, ridiculous response quite honestly. I shouldn't sink to your level though, granted.

Nah, you'll just parrot what I said without a shred of self awareness (or context).

I put what I said into context, I explained what an opinion entails and why you making out what I think opinions are wrong is just not true, and is a complete misunderstanding on your part. You, in response, chose to be childish.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Swan

Being unhappy is one thing, outright refusing to accept it is another. Do you respect that more people voted conservative in December, hence they won, so protesting in the streets against it wasn't at all democratic?

I understand perfectly what democracy is.

i still do not accept it that US has Trump as a president, which is almost on similar scale if a Paris Hilton became a president

or Richard Branson became the new UK prime minister

if democracy in america means you need to trollvote based upon whom entertains you the most, to get elected president, well then this is a true democracy one huge mess, but then again america is indeed one huge mess in general, so maybe this is normal for them

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Except you don't because you confuse people not being happy with how a vote turns out with them wanting to actively overturn it.

Protesting is always democratic, it's a right of ours to do so. There is no way that a protest can't be undemocratic, since it's a branch of democracy in itself, as people letting their voices be heard is never a bad thing. You may (and are free) to disagree with what they are saying, but protests, in their very essence are democratic procedures, and the protests in December weren't to actually overturn the vote but to voice displeasure at it, which is perfectly acceptable in a country with democracy and free speech.

You continue to prove why you don't understand what democracy entails, you're arguing against the voicing of opposing opinions, that's undemocratic as ****.

Protesting peacefully is democratic, causing unrest, violence, and refusing to accept a vote is not. Throwing a tantrum because things didn't go your way - a dignified voice against the outcome = Two different things!

Aren't you glad we live in such a country

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nah, you'll just parrot what I said without a shred of self awareness (or context).

I put what I said into context, I explained what an opinion entails and why you making out what I think opinions are wrong is just not true, and is a complete misunderstanding on your part. You, in response, chose to be childish.

The irony.

[The Slim Reaper]

Democracy doesn't stop after people have voted, so Trumps quid pro quo is anti-democratic, paying off porn stars to hide the info from pornstars is anti-democratic, refusing to hand over peacefully is authoritarian nevermind anti-democratic.

Voters and citizens have a right and a duty to hold leaders to democratic standards, or those standards will disappear.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

i still do not accept it that US has Trump as a president, which is almost on similar scale if a Paris Hilton became a president

or Richard Branson became the new UK prime minister

if democracy in america means you need to trollvote based upon whom entertains you the most, to get elected president, well then this is a true democracy one huge mess, but then again america is indeed one huge mess in general, so maybe this is normal for them

I have no idea what you're saying there really Nicky?!

What even is a 'trollvote'

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Protesting peacefully is democratic, causing unrest, violence, and refusing to accept a vote is not. Throwing a tantrum because things didn't go your way - a dignified voice against the outcome = Two different things!

Aren't you glad we live in such a country



The irony.

Protesting is democratic no matter what, as Slim said, democracy doesn't end with a vote. it's an ongoing process and protests are part of that. regardless of the outcome.

Also, please learn what irony is because, when you do, you'll find your own posts to be full of irony, given that you claim that discourse is undemocratic while spewing undemocratic nonsense made to discredit and degrade valid forms of democracy.

I said it before and I'll say it again, you do not have a good understanding of what democracy is and you keep proving it time and time again.