[arista]

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

I totally agree with you Joey

Thank you.
Sorry I j saw this and thought I'd responded.

I just don't hold with statistics.
I never really have trusted them.

For instance at weekends we get lesser numbers of recorded death figures.

We don't really know the true infection rates.
The track and trace sources have admitted only about half of those who've been in contact with someone confirmed with it, are likely being reached at all.

All we do know is a second wave came, is here and has taken now again thousands of lives.

Those are lives lost and no matter how much huffing and puffing is done by the statisticians and those who religiously believe the presentations.

I care about those thousands of lives lost unnecessarily.
Not about branding figures about.

As Scarlett said, the main thing is getting this detestable virus dealt with.
I'm going to get emotion filled again, having lost 4 special people already, I fear,yes fear losing anymore..
I'll never make apologies for that and certainly never for figures on charts.
Supposedly telling me things aren't as they seem or not to be concerned.

No way as to that for me.

[parmnion]

I just had a txt from my cousin. Alan's his name.

His daughter is some rugby player I can tell you that.

Well her mum, and my cousins wife is the same age as me. Shes had the covid since the 10th, shes overweight and an ex smoker sucking on the fake fag now..

His last txt said... shes had it rough..

Covid is a twat, no doubt about it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again, I'm not the one ignoring the thoughts and opinions of others on this thread, I'm replying to some quite specific things, whilst noting people being responded to with unwarranted/unprompted anger for "daring" to question hyperbolic anecdotal claims that have little bearing on the objective reality of the situation.

e.g;

"The virus is mostly dangerous to the elderly and deaths/serious side effects in the young are rare, the data on that is very clear."

"NO IT'S WRONG because I know someone young who had it worse than that and thus you are not taking Covid seriously enough/playing it down"

This is not an argument that has any place in an actual meaningful discussion of the situation. As I said, I'm sympathetic to people's individual circumstances but they don't have meaningful bearing on the overall data.

The phrase "damn lies and statistics" that Joey quoted points out that statistics CAN be manipulated when people have ulterior motives; I can think of multiple examples of the government doing this with Covid, but it's not happening on any sort of scale amongst epidemiologists and virologists, nor is there any reason it would be. It absolutely does NOT mean, nor was it ever intended to mean that individual experience is more meaningful or more likely to paint an accurate picture on a large scale than statistics.

Covid-19 is quite obviously serious and I haven't seen many examples at all of people on here trying to make out that it's "nothing" - this isn't a Trump rally - what I do see is people keeping a level head and assessing the situation based on the actually available information, and others saying "UMM NO, you should PANIC actually because[list of experiences]". To be blunt, that's not helpful for anyone and actively harmful to many. And it's often stated in anger. So it deserves to be challenged.

So where are the anecdotal hyperbolic claims... and where are your concrete stats that you're basing all your baseless opinions on... are we just meant to accept your musings without question?

I'll ignore your ranting, post some evidence or stop posting your opinion as fact and getting huffy when others pull you on it.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So where are the anecdotal hyperbolic claims... and where are your concrete stats that you're basing all your baseless opinions on... are we just meant to accept your musings without question?

I'll ignore your ranting, post some evidence or stop posting your opinion as fact and getting huffy when others pull you on it.

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

You're not the forum police are you? You dont have to chelp up for anyone.

My reply was to you, and you quoted bots and lt. ..nothing to do with Joey. It was my comment you rubbished with your dismissive rather patronising reply. Your silly old snipe has not made reference to the links to the articles I posted that my earlier comment referenced . Nothing whatsoever to do with gut feelings sausage.

[arista]

After 10PM
you can take your time to leave the Pub
but not being served after 10PM

[AnnieK]

Greater Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Great Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!

....yeah I was just reading the Manchester Evening News, it’s all looking terrific, Annie....and you all so deserve to see those rates going the way they are atm......

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

you just don't get it do you. Hundreds of people are dying every day. Thats a fact, One just happened to be a personal friend of mine late last week. To see LT saying his friend has had worse colds and playing down the virus is completely insensitive and certainly struck home with me after such a recent loss. It has absolutely nothing to do with statistics

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That isn't even vaguely what's happened in the last few pages of this thread; what actually happened was that LT said something that was perfectly reasonable and Joey snapped his head off as "not taking Covid seriously" etc. and I had to stand up for the poor li'l sausage.

But by all means have a go at me for what you imagine happened based on your own preconceptions rather than actually reading back... as - as we of course now know - gut feelings and emotions are the important things, not silly old observed facts.

I didn't want to post this but have to as you've made a serious accusation against me as to another member.
Which should only be a mods place to do so in any event.
So I'm going to defend myself against you.
With something any mod can bear me out on too.

When I am talking about those diminishing this virus.
I am talking about anyone, also the people off here, not just on here and I never mention any names.
As to the member you mention.
I never snapped that member's head off at all.

Since I have nothing to do with that member and don't interact with them at all.
In any way whatsoever.

So talk about yourself TS.
Not hide behind supposedly protecting others.

I have my train of thought on this virus and I challenge anything on here and off here as to it from my perspective.

People can disagree with me however that doesn't make my points any less valid than yours.

HOWEVER not at all.
Have I snapped that member's head off because I never now respond to them anyway, for from the past and now for MY own peace of mind on here.

So from now just leave my name OUT of your posts please.

Especially if you're going to wrongly infer you need to protect another member from me.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that reads in print.

I don't agree with your immovable stance on statistics which you present as near gospel only immaterial of others experiences.

I look at this virus from my and others angles not just relying on warped statistics, which aren't even giving the right account of all deaths.
With only deaths from diagnosis being recorded within 28 days.

I'll never agree with your rigid take on this virus from your statistics trust.
Just as you'll never agree with my take on things from my own personal and others personal experiences.
Plus my now distrust of only statistics.

[AnnieK]

I'm going the throw my two penneth in here and play devil's advocate a little.

Logically, statistically and scientifically we know now that Covid19 is a virus that is particularly dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable. However, there have been cases of seemingly healthy younger people who have succumbed to it. Each loss of life leaves a massive hole in a families lives. So that impact should never be overlooked.

However, I honestly don't think that is what is happening here. I think people are approaching the conversation from two different angles, one from a purely scientific and one from an emotive one.

To put it another way. I lost my mum in 2014 from cancer. 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. Now logically, I know that was unlucky and most cancers can be treated to give a longer life and a lot can be cured. Doesn't stop me from going into a tailspin ever time cancer is mentioned. I have families members who have recovered from cancer after my mum passed but I cannot get passed her death to rationalise it properly. To me cancer = death.

I think personal experience goes a long way in your thought processes and actions regarding circumstances you find yourself in. Joey and BOTs have lost people close to them and so have a view of the virus that is completely different to TS and LT who haven't had their personal lives affected in the same way (and TS has another viewpoint due to his wife working throughout in the NHS so has a medical view also).

Joey and BOTs, I am very sorry for your losses.

[arista]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Greater Manchester rates continuing to fall by an average of 22% across all 10 boroughs. One area is now at the national average. We are getting there finally!

And the pubs staying open after 10PM
so not such a rush to leave all at once.
Could help

No servings, after 10PM though

[arista]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I just had a txt from my cousin. Alan's his name.

His daughter is some rugby player I can tell you that.

Well her mum, and my cousins wife is the same age as me. Shes had the covid since the 10th, shes overweight and an ex smoker sucking on the fake fag now..

His last txt said... shes had it rough..

Covid is a twat, no doubt about it.

Yes China's Covid
is messing up our lives

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I'm going the throw my two penneth in here and play devil's advocate a little.

Logically, statistically and scientifically we know now that Covid19 is a virus that is particularly dangerous to the elderly and vulnerable. However, there have been cases of seemingly healthy younger people who have succumbed to it. Each loss of life leaves a massive hole in a families lives. So that impact should never be overlooked.

However, I honestly don't think that is what is happening here. I think people are approaching the conversation from two different angles, one from a purely scientific and one from an emotive one.

To put it another way. I lost my mum in 2014 from cancer. 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. Now logically, I know that was unlucky and most cancers can be treated to give a longer life and a lot can be cured. Doesn't stop me from going into a tailspin ever time cancer is mentioned. I have families members who have recovered from cancer after my mum passed but I cannot get passed her death to rationalise it properly. To me cancer = death.

I think personal experience goes a long way in your thought processes and actions regarding circumstances you find yourself in. Joey and BOTs have lost people close to them and so have a view of the virus that is completely different to TS and LT who haven't had their personal lives affected in the same way (and TS has another viewpoint due to his wife working throughout in the NHS so has a medical view also).

Joey and BOTs, I am very sorry for your losses.

...it’s a strange thing, Annie... because we’re all living the same virus and yet we’re not all living the same virus and haven’t throughout, you know...from the beginning I think that’s been apparent how individual lives have impacted so differently in many ways and in many aspects, as well as personal loss...that’s been so obvious in talking to families, how many additions there are to the emotional for some...and with something as huge as this and as devastating to lives and restrictive to lives as COVID has been, every individual has to find their own way of dealing with, you know...while also realising the sensitivity because our ‘COVIDs’ are so vastly different....


....as well as BOTs and Joey, I’m so sorry to hear your loss as well, Scarlett......

[arista]

[Ammi]

Exclusive: Two Covid tests a week could win people a 'freedom pass'...

People are set to be given "freedom passes" to allow them to live as normal a life as possible as long as they have two negative coronavirus tests a week, under a plan to get the country back to normal next year.

Under the scheme, which is still being developed by Whitehall officials, people could be given the passes as long as they can show they have been regularly tested for Covid-19.

People who are found to be Covid-free would be given a card, a letter or document that can be stored on their phone to show they can move around. Regular tests would be needed to ensure that they qualify for the certificates.

A source familiar with the plans said that the scheme would allow people to lead as normal a life as possible while the Government's vaccine programme gets up to speed on a mass scale early in the new year.

The source said: "They will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App."

The source added that the passes would allow people "to see their family, and normal social distancing rules will not apply".

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-...164848634.html

[arista]

A rare Sunday Cabinet Meeting today
will debate Covid Restrictions after 2nd of Dec,
and Parliament matters.


Johnson on screen
of course

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you just don't get it do you. Hundreds of people are dying every day. Thats a fact, One just happened to be a personal friend of mine late last week. To see LT saying his friend has had worse colds and playing down the virus is completely insensitive and certainly struck home with me after such a recent loss. It has absolutely nothing to do with statistics

Again Bots, I do have sympathy for everyone's losses, and my response to these posts would be completely different if they were in General Chat or if I was talking to someone directly, but this is the SD section and my feeling (still, despite the various attempts to shame me for it) is that the discussion here should be more academic, more pragmatic, and based in scientific fact and not people's individual experiences when trying to wrestle out the facts relating to the pandemic. I'm not willing to ignore people poo-pooing medical science and statistics in favour of their own subjective experiences, whilst at the same time championing vaccines and lockdowns that are the product of medical science and statistics. It's the SD thread about Covid, it's not a support thread, and this thread and section is frankly not appropriate for people who are struggling with related recent personal loss. Like I said before - I've experienced personal loss, plenty of it, and I'm well aware that I'm not always able to engage in level-headed discussions on the associated topics and I fully understand that people have lost loved ones to Covid and that the same applies. I'm not and haven't minimised Covid, nor its impact on people. And whilst I understand people's hurt and frustration coming out in conversations with others, I fundamentally don't think it's something that should go unmentioned or excused, and I don't think anyone should have to avoid discussing the facts and figures of a global pandemic for fear that it might upset people who have sadly suffered disproportionate loss.

I'm aware that this probably comes across as cold. But there are many sections on this forum, and if this one isn't the place to discuss the science of the virus without impacting people's emotions and getting backlash for that, I don't know where is.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Exclusive: Two Covid tests a week could win people a 'freedom pass'...

People are set to be given "freedom passes" to allow them to live as normal a life as possible as long as they have two negative coronavirus tests a week, under a plan to get the country back to normal next year.

Under the scheme, which is still being developed by Whitehall officials, people could be given the passes as long as they can show they have been regularly tested for Covid-19.

People who are found to be Covid-free would be given a card, a letter or document that can be stored on their phone to show they can move around. Regular tests would be needed to ensure that they qualify for the certificates.

A source familiar with the plans said that the scheme would allow people to lead as normal a life as possible while the Government's vaccine programme gets up to speed on a mass scale early in the new year.

The source said: "They will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App."

The source added that the passes would allow people "to see their family, and normal social distancing rules will not apply".

...full article...

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-...164848634.html

Will this be free? Doubtful


Who is asking people why they are not wearing a mask, if I see someone not wearing one I don’t think much of it tbh, what grinds my gears is someone wearing a mask on their chin ..what’s the point just take it off and stop pretending that you care

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Will this be free? Doubtful


Who is asking people why they are not wearing a mask, if I see someone not wearing one I don’t think much of it tbh, what grinds my gears is someone wearing a mask on their chin ..what’s the point just take it off and stop pretending that you care

Wasn't Boots offering tests for something like £150 at one point .

I don't necessarily mind when people aren't wearing masks and just going about their business - what does irk me is when people are "pointedly" not wearing them and scoffing/smirking/shaking their head at people round the supermarket like they're in on some great secret. Y'know - the "Trump people" spillover from America. I haven't seen MANY doing that to be fair, probably 5 or 6 incidents in total but TWO of those times were entire families... hubby and wife arguing and shouting at their grubby kids. And then the husband got all huffy at the checkout and stormed out the shop - leaving the wife with three wild children and all the shopping.

But yeah the chin straps... I was in the chippy last week and an entire clan of 8 - 10 teenage boys strolled in, ALL wearing masks on either their chins or foreheads

[bitontheslide]

this testing to make sure you don't have the virus is a recipe for disaster. If tested every 3 or 4 days, there still remains the possibility for that for 3 days you could be happily passing on the virus to a crowded room while still testing negative. I would rather folk were just honest and say they can't be arsed with the restrictions, because thats what the real meaning is

I also just have to add that 1 month after Christmas/New year is shaping up to be a nightmare from relaxations in social distancing

[AnnieK]

It will be a money making thing surely? People will have to pay for the freedom passes and tests.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

this testing to make sure you don't have the virus is a recipe for disaster. If tested every 3 or 4 days, there still remains the possibility for that for 3 days you could be happily passing on the virus to a crowded room while still testing negative. I would rather folk were just honest and say they can't be arsed with the restrictions, because thats what the real meaning is

It’s pie in the sky I think logistically and administratively it would be difficult to carry out, they can’t test NHS staff once a week never mind the gen pop twice a week

[arista]

"a crowded room while still testing negative."


Those days have gone.
we are now in long lines with gaps,