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Old 21-01-2021, 09:05 PM   #126
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And not all trans women want to compete in women's sports ,but we're led to believe they do .
Quite. Its a select few. Ones who..well have no sense of wanting fairness in competition I guess. And then often go on to abuse women who point out the lack of fairness, and call them transphobic.

I only know a couple of transpeople tbf, but they think it is ridiculous to even consider male people in womens sport. They say the same as anyone else who talks about the topic tbh, that such people know its unfair, and don't care, or are simply looking to take advantage of a natural advantage.

I think the loopholes and such are more at fault, than those who use the loopholes really though. Such things should not be allowed to start with. If you leave gaping holes like that, or specifically set up legislation in such a way, of course some will take advantage.

Its only a few at the moment, but even a few has the potential to devastate womes sport. Even teenage boys can run rings round adult professional sports players. Its blatantly unfair, and needs to end.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:09 PM   #127
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My second thought is that it's a lot of hysteria over nothing and that things will be done with common sense in mind.
One would hope. I wish I could be so optomistic to be quite honest. But given past similar things that actually happened and are happening, I can no longer think common sense will win. Can hope though..

The trans ban in the military though absolutely should be lifted. I can understand it if it was a..medication issue. As as I understand theres a lot of people disqualified because of the meds they take/need for whatever reason. But it appeared to be a flat out ban on anyone who said they were trans, whatever their medical status, which is clearly just phobic and should not have happened at all. So I do 100% agree with lifting that.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:12 PM   #128
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When it comes to sports, the sad reality is that trans people can never compete on the same level as their gender. Trans men will never really have the same strength advantages that cis men have and trans women will have an advantage over cis women in most sports.

I don't think trans people in sports can ever really be a thing unless there's enough trans people to have them competing against each other. It's a bit exclusionary but it's the only way I can see trans men standing a chance and trans women not dominating traditional sports.

It's a **** solution but it's the only one that springs to mind.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:16 PM   #129
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Quite. Its a select few. Ones who..well have no sense of wanting fairness in competition I guess. And then often go on to abuse women who point out the lack of fairness, and call them transphobic.

I only know a couple of transpeople tbf, but they think it is ridiculous to even consider male people in womens sport. They say the same as anyone else who talks about the topic tbh, that such people know its unfair, and don't care, or are simply looking to take advantage of a natural advantage.

I think the loopholes and such are more at fault, than those who use the loopholes really though. Such things should not be allowed to start with. If you leave gaping holes like that, or specifically set up legislation in such a way, of course some will take advantage.

Its only a few at the moment, but even a few has the potential to devastate womes sport. Even teenage boys can run rings round adult professional sports players. Its blatantly unfair, and needs to end.
There was a trans woman bodybuilder, I forgot her name but it was implied she was competing in women's sport.But I think she either competed with men or just didn't compete atall .

Yeah unfortunately people will always take advantage of loopholes .

The weird thing with public toilets now is the whole pandemic , before Covid I still hated using them . But I definitely think urinals should go and that we should have separate cubicles like what TS said . But I know that won't happen .
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:39 PM   #130
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Maybe you're right, I am sorry Niamh, for calling you a terf, and for getting angry at you Marsh

The anger hasnt stemmed from you but from real life, I am sorry for my outburst, legitimately and ban me if you must. The anger has stemmed from people legitimately putting trans people down and I recognise that that is not what you are doing, I regret saying what I did.
It's a tricky issue Scarlett, and one that affects/effects (playing it safe there) both you and Niamh so you're both gonna be passionate about the topic for different reasons, but also good reasons imo.

Obviously I don't fit into either group so it's not really my place to know what the right answers to this particular issue are, but hopefully countries worldwide will be able to come up with a compromise for both sides, whatever that may be.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:42 PM   #131
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I think a big area of frustration for transgender people is that they can't have access to what they really need/want because of a few bad cases, and people tend to focus more on the bad than the good.

Not that I don't understand it because, as Vicky mentionned for example, there are people that will try to take advantage of it and hurt people. And those hurt ones need to be heard too.
But really it's more the system that should be wronged rather than the people themselves, hence a well-needed good education about those issues.
To me there are way more good willing people than bad and I can see the frustration of transgender people always hearing "but it's unfair" or "transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets" etc all the time as a justification to what should be forbidden or not.
Not to mention that there are fully transphobic people who use these excuses to hide their transphobia (and again, I'm not talking about TIBB members who are fully genuine in their concerns about the topic and are not transphobic)

Again, not putting any justification of violence cases or people taking advantage of it aside whatsoever because it's a reality. I'm just pointing out what transgender people currently feel and that indeed, there is a way for both trans rights and womens rights to meet and fight for social justice together.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:47 PM   #132
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There was a trans woman bodybuilder, I forgot her name but it was implied she was competing in women's sport.But I think she either competed with men or just didn't compete atall .

Yeah unfortunately people will always take advantage of loopholes .

The weird thing with public toilets now is the whole pandemic , before Covid I still hated using them . But I definitely think urinals should go and that we should have separate cubicles like what TS said . But I know that won't happen .
I believe you may be thinking of Laurel Hubbard. New Zealand IIRC. Quite crap in the male category. Came out as a transwoman. And is taking records in the womens category oddly enough, despite being well past the usual peak of weightlifters, at 40+. Trouncing the younger fitter competitors.

Edit. Maybe not, read body builder as weightlifter

Some of the transwomen competitors DO still compete in their sex class. Those are the ones I would say are brave tbh. As especially if they are on medication, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, and will have to work a lot harder than others. The ones who decide to just start competing as women instead though, I have no time for and cannot see as anything other than cheats. Though technically they are not cheating as its 'within the rules'. They certainly have no sense of fair play.
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Old 21-01-2021, 09:56 PM   #133
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I think a big area of frustration for transgender people is that they can't have access to what they really need/want because of a few bad cases, and people tend to focus more on the bad than the good.

Not that I don't understand it because, as Vicky mentionned for example, there are people that will try to take advantage of it and hurt people. And those hurt ones need to be heard too.
But really it's more the system that should be wronged rather than the people themselves, hence a well-needed good education about those issues.
To me there are way more good willing people than bad and I can see the frustration of transgender people always hearing "but it's unfair" or "transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets" etc all the time as a justification to what should be forbidden or not.
Not to mention that there are fully transphobic people who use these excuses to hide their transphobia (and again, I'm not talking about TIBB members who are fully genuine in their concerns about the topic and are not transphobic)

Again, not putting any justification of violence cases or people taking advantage of it aside whatsoever because it's a reality. I'm just pointing out what transgender people currently feel and that indeed, there is a way for both trans rights and womens rights to meet and fight for social justice together.
Its not 'just a few bad people' though. I don't understand that argument in this context. We make laws on people based on classes. Not on the good people who exist. Otherwise, men would all be allowed in female areas, because most men are not dangerous and most do not want to abuse women. Female areas would not exist if we rationalise in the way you are doing above? Not sure if I am explaining myself right here. But no laws would exist at all really, if it was all based on that. As generally speaking, most people will be good, its only a few bad ones, in whatever you are talking about. There would not be laws around fraud, because most people would never dream of committing fraud, making laws around it is accusing good people of maybe not being good. We wouldn't need laws on child abuse, as come on, most people don't abuse children, its not nice to base stuff on the few who do, its insulting and upsetting to those who would never consider doing anything wrong. Basically, safeguarding does not work based on the good ones. It takes all into account.


transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets - Have literally never seen that said ever. Yeah it would be **** to hear that all the time though.

Agreed though, about people who hide actual transphobia by using other genuine issues to mask it. Thats generally quite obvious as...its people who only ever pop up in womens rights stuff when it comes to trans related stuff. They do not care about womens rights generally, yet suddenly do when its to do with trans people. The reverse happens also. People who give not a **** about 'social justice' or whatever, unless its a trans topic, in which case they use it to talk crap about women. Its hugely frustrating, but generally quite obvious.

I get why transpeople feel attacked. I also understand why women feel attacked. Neither should be attacked. Both deserve rights, of their own. And solutions need to be found that benefit both groups. Not one group totally ignored and silenced, in order to please the other. Its possible to do. Just seemingly, unwanted.
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Old 21-01-2021, 10:08 PM   #134
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Its not 'just a few bad people' though. I don't understand that argument in this context. We make laws on people based on classes. Not on the good people who exist. Otherwise, men would all be allowed in female areas, because most men are not dangerous and most do not want to abuse women. Female areas would not exist if we rationalise in the way you are doing above? Not sure if I am explaining myself right here. But no laws would exist at all really, if it was all based on that. As generally speaking, most people will be good, its only a few bad ones, in whatever you are talking about. There would not be laws around fraud, because most people would never dream of committing fraud, making laws around it is accusing good people of maybe not being good. We wouldn't need laws on child abuse, as come on, most people don't abuse children, its not nice to base stuff on the few who do, its insulting and upsetting to those who would never consider doing anything wrong. Basically, safeguarding does not work based on the good ones. It takes all into account.


transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets - Have literally never seen that said ever. Yeah it would be **** to hear that all the time though.

Agreed though, about people who hide actual transphobia by using other genuine issues to mask it. Thats generally quite obvious as...its people who only ever pop up in womens rights stuff when it comes to trans related stuff. They do not care about womens rights generally, yet suddenly do when its to do with trans people. The reverse happens also. People who give not a **** about 'social justice' or whatever, unless its a trans topic, in which case they use it to talk crap about women. Its hugely frustrating, but generally quite obvious.

I get why transpeople feel attacked. I also understand why women feel attacked. Neither should be attacked. Both deserve rights, of their own. And solutions need to be found that benefit both groups. Not one group totally ignored and silenced, in order to please the other. Its possible to do. Just seemingly, unwanted.
I'm not saying laws should be based only on good willing people because that's not possible and you stated it clearly.
I'm saying it's the way it's put across to transgender people, there's a difference. It's always "but your people are dangerous" kind of speech from some people to shut down the discussion instead of really opening it up.

When it comes to the unisex thing, I've heard it from transwomen who experienced it first hand, and I understand that it must hurt because they're mixed with the bad ones (the one who take advantage of situations like that such as robberies, sexual assault etc). It's quite devastating to them. It takes one case to put people in that box.

And obviously rights that are respectful to all
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Old 21-01-2021, 10:27 PM   #135
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Totally misunderstood that bit then, sorry

I get that it would be annoying and upsetting if people were always saying stuff like that. Thats kind of why I try to..be so specific when talking about this, that its not really transpeople that are the issue that I see, though it comes under the 'trans rights' argument. Its, the consequences of doing away with sex based rights, which so many transactivists seem to want, yet, transpeople themselves are less keen on that, transsexual people at least (another kind of issue is how..wide the 'umbrella' is these days, near anyone could legitimately claim to be trans when you remove sex dysphoria from the equation..and when this happens, the 'womens spaces' issue becomes even harder to deal with, if suddenly there are 500k people wanting in, instead of 5000). I..attempt to make it clear that its men who will abuse it, or general pisstakers who do not actually have dysphoria.. that are my problem, not actual transwomen, for example. Or if its about a specific person, will try to make sure I only talk about them (then get accused of being focused on one person!) make very clear that that person is my issue, and the loophole they are currently showing to the world.

FFS in these discussions before I have tied myself in knots so much I end up saying 'person with a penis' or 'female person with a gender identify of a man but who is feminine' and other ridiculous things as I have been so specific with wording that thats what I am left with and it needs to be said in order to make the point make any sense

Its hard, to find wording sometimes to say what you mean without offending anyone. And despite what some think on here, I genuinely do not want to offend anyone.

My main point in this will always be, its possible to advance the rights of all. Without removing rights from anyone. But this will take hard discussions. Trying to prevent the discussion by shutting it down, is not helping anyone in the long run really. There are solutions, maybe not ideal solutions, but solutions better than the current ones. Its not fair, not should it be accepted, to just expect women to roll over and give up their rights. Especially not when such rights are so recently won, and honestly, still a bit flakey in some areas. Nor is it fair to expect transpeople to do nothing to advance their own situation. The two don't HAVE to clash. And needs actually cross over in some areas tbh. But..the state of things today is just crap, and helps noone and just creates resentment where there doesn't need to be resentment really.
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Old 21-01-2021, 10:39 PM   #136
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When it comes to sports, the sad reality is that trans people can never compete on the same level as their gender. Trans men will never really have the same strength advantages that cis men have and trans women will have an advantage over cis women in most sports.

I don't think trans people in sports can ever really be a thing unless there's enough trans people to have them competing against each other. It's a bit exclusionary but it's the only way I can see trans men standing a chance and trans women not dominating traditional sports.

It's a **** solution but it's the only one that springs to mind.


Theres always darts and snooker and bowls
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Old 21-01-2021, 10:59 PM   #137
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I believe you may be thinking of Laurel Hubbard. New Zealand IIRC. Quite crap in the male category. Came out as a transwoman. And is taking records in the womens category oddly enough, despite being well past the usual peak of weightlifters, at 40+. Trouncing the younger fitter competitors.

Edit. Maybe not, read body builder as weightlifter

Some of the transwomen competitors DO still compete in their sex class. Those are the ones I would say are brave tbh. As especially if they are on medication, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, and will have to work a lot harder than others. The ones who decide to just start competing as women instead though, I have no time for and cannot see as anything other than cheats. Though technically they are not cheating as its 'within the rules'. They certainly have no sense of fair play.
No the person I'm talking about is Janae Marie Kroc she's American.
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:37 AM   #138
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I wasn't specifically talking about that issue in particular, but more so about the general feel I get lately on this forum that there's a lot of heated debates around that and how we still have a long way to go before completely accepting people for their genders and sexualities without judging them or making assumptions about who is who and who loves who and what. What I said is that it really can't be that hard to accept people for who they are. I mean, why the hatred ans refusal to get educated on this topic. That's the feel I got lately and I get it that not everybody shares that and I'm OK with that.

That's basically all I said and I wish everybody would be more open-minded and accepting of people that are marginalized and discriminated on.
Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:47 AM   #139
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Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.
Precisely, and the irony that some of the LGBT community who fought a battle against being slurred and who had many woman standing by them in their fight are now resorting to slurs themselves to shut down debate instead of engaging in resolution is frankly mind blowing
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Old 22-01-2021, 07:57 AM   #140
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Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.
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Precisely, and the irony that some of the LGBT community who fought a battle against being slurred and who had many woman standing by them in their fight are now resorting to slurs themselves to shut down debate instead of engaging in resolution is frankly mind blowing
And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.
I meant in a more general way because there are people reading this thread that are not members. Not meaning you or women in particular. As I have said, some people have genuine concerns and want to engage in the discussion, and some just use that as an excuse.

Hence the discussion I had with Vicky later to say that both groups need to be heard and a war doesn't have to happen when it comes to both rights. It can be worked out but it's an incredibly touchy and sensitive topic on both ends. LGBT people and women always fought together for social justice, it cannot stop now and hopefully never will.

I also shared my view that lately there has been a lot of heat and intense discussions about those topics (ie The sexuality thread or whatever it's called) that can be perceived as hurtful. That's it, it doesn't get beyond that.
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Old 22-01-2021, 08:10 AM   #141
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...just to follow on to what Remy has said in the thread, there are many very interesting articles...Iím not sure if these are Ďthe bestí as such because there are so many, but these are a few I read...


https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politi...e/trans-rights

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...re-not-enemies
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Old 22-01-2021, 09:10 AM   #142
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And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.
Your comment was made about discussions on this forum. I was assuring you that, in the majority of cases, you have made incorrect assumptions about them.

I politely suggest you word things more carefully when highlighting the two main discussion points people have raised in the thread with the addendum that they are "what transphobic people hide behind" if you are not trying to insult people simply discussing the topic.
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:11 PM   #143
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And mother's usually take their little boys into women's toilet with them for safety, a father can't do that with his daughter though if he's a single dad .
I don't think most women would mind if a man brought his daughter into the womens toilets.

But yeah individual cubicles is obviously the best solution but agree with LT that space and money would be the biggest obstacle there
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:46 PM   #144
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Ammi your first link, I genuinely cannot see how anyone can read that as anything other than a propogada piece against feminists Maybe I have been reading into this crap for too long now. But I have actively tried and cannot read anything in that bar 'many feminists are nasty and will not yield to my opinion when I demand it. The only right feminists are the ones who say women are not actually female people, and are certainly not oppressed, everyone should fight for MY cause, not their own. Else bigot.'

The second one is quite 'everythings fine behind the scenes, press are just going mad' which is..partially true but not totally. Certainly more honest and open than the GQ link
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Old 22-01-2021, 12:54 PM   #145
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Loos is the easiest part of it, always has been. Thats kind of what surprised me, when these convos turn to loos. I think most people in general, would be much happier with individual rooms with basins and such...rather than any part of it 'communal'. Loos is...just not a issue overall.

The real problems lie in the likes of prisons, refuges, sport...there are no easy aswers to those. Thats where the discussion needs to be. And its not as easy to just say 'oh, single areas..for those things.
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Old 22-01-2021, 01:02 PM   #146
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And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.
I meant in a more general way because there are people reading this thread that are not members. Not meaning you or women in particular. As I have said, some people have genuine concerns and want to engage in the discussion, and some just use that as an excuse.


Hence the discussion I had with Vicky later to say that both groups need to be heard and a war doesn't have to happen when it comes to both rights. It can be worked out but it's an incredibly touchy and sensitive topic on both ends. LGBT people and women always fought together for social justice, it cannot stop now and hopefully never will.

I also shared my view that lately there has been a lot of heat and intense discussions about those topics (ie The sexuality thread or whatever it's called) that can be perceived as hurtful. That's it, it doesn't get beyond that.

But don't you see that those of us who have concerns are not able to engage as as soon as anyone puts their head above the parapet they are immediately insulted, as evidenced in this thread
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Old 22-01-2021, 01:24 PM   #147
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Trans women are trans women. They are not born women, they have a Y chromosome, They don't menstruate, they can't reproduce and they've lived their formative years as males, with all the privilege that brings. That said, I believe trans women should be able to live as they like, they are worth just as much as born women, but they are different.

Women have fought for centuries not to be second class citizens, now we're third class, with our rights trailing behind not only men, but trans women too.

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Old 22-01-2021, 02:06 PM   #148
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Ammi your first link, I genuinely cannot see how anyone can read that as anything other than a propogada piece against feminists Maybe I have been reading into this crap for too long now. But I have actively tried and cannot read anything in that bar 'many feminists are nasty and will not yield to my opinion when I demand it. The only right feminists are the ones who say women are not actually female people, and are certainly not oppressed, everyone should fight for MY cause, not their own. Else bigot.'

The second one is quite 'everythings fine behind the scenes, press are just going mad' which is..partially true but not totally. Certainly more honest and open than the GQ link
........hmmmm, thatís not how it read to me, it was more that it was looking at both Ďsidesí as it were and concluding that ...(as has been said...)...there needs to be a coming together...
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Old 22-01-2021, 02:10 PM   #149
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...I donít see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a Ďprivilegeí to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...for many it would have meant extreme unhappiness and not feeling any Ďfití...how could that in any way be thought to be a privileged life....(...obviously exclusive of any specific advantages in competitive sports, which is obviously a huge thing to be addressed and conversations to be had...)...
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Old 22-01-2021, 02:15 PM   #150
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........hmmmm, that’s not how it read to me, it was more that it was looking at both ‘sides’ as it were and concluding that ...(as has been said...)...there needs to be a coming together...
I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..be complicit (and even enthusiastic) in the erasure of their current rights tbh. I find it even more unreasonable to make out its feminists who are in the wrong and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.

NOT saying you are saying this ammi, as sometimes my posts come across wrongly. I am talking about the 'be inclusive' article. The second one, by a transwoman..at least recognizes some issues. The first is just handwaving 'nothing to see here, feminists should be kind' to me.

Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and IMO quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!
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