[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

That's the problem though isn't it, as soon as women born as women raise an issue regarding competing against women born as men, they are shut down and called Terfs when really what they want is a level playing field if you will pardon the pun! If it could be discussed at all without the name calling that would be progress

Yes and it goes both ways too! No name calling as it doesn't help (In the local shelter for LGBTQ+ people I volunteer at, a lot of debates take place and I haven't heard any, but yes it exists from both ends) and listening!

There are a lot of emotions around these topics What used to be acceptable is not anymore to some people, some want to keep it this way ect Tough topic to have an understandable outcome.

[Shaun]

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yet she's competed in female golf tournaments herself. Bit hypocritical.

I think what she's saying is ultimately true, unfortunately. Trans women innately have an unfair advantage in female sport while sadly, trans men will have a disadvantage in male sport.

The only real solution I can think of is to have trans men and women divisions which feels exclusionary and unfeasible atm considering there aren't many trans athletes, but it's the only way I can think of that's fair to all involved. Trans athletes won't have to be excluded from sports because of innate advantages or disadvantages, and cisgendered women won't feel pushed out either.

Oh I didn't know that, that is pretty hypocritical alright

[Oliver_W]

The most fair way is probably for transwomen to compete in male teams. Have the sex divisions be divided by ... sex.

[LeatherTrumpet]

How many actual people are we talking about here it must be miniscule?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

Obviously there are men and women who are naturally physically superior to other men and women but we're talking here about for the most part biological men are physically stronger, faster etc than biological women, all you need do to see by how much is look at men's records compared to women's, it's the whole reason sex is segregated in the first place because if it wasn't there would be very very few women being good enough to play in mixed sex sports.

In regards to team sports I do think one player can make a massive difference and i do think 1 player could cause more serious injuries to other players too

I get how it's not ideal for genuine transwomen to not be allowed compete with women but it just takes the fairness out of it for biological women to allow transwomen play not least because it leaves the door wide open for people to abuse it (and people would when money and notoriety is involved) I'm not going to post a list of cases where this has already started happening in women's sports because I'm sure I've posted them before

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

within their own sex category

Which is?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Which is?

Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

checkmate

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

They surely wouldn't be running a half marathon or lobbing the shot putt, whilst in the midst of a transitional.


Even a butterfly has to lay down for stuff like that.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by parmnion

They surely wouldn't be running a half marathon or lobbing the shot putt, whilst in the midst of a transitional.


Even a butterfly has to lay down for stuff like that.

That's like saying women are too busy menstruating to take part in sports. I doubt transitioning is so time consuming they don't have time for anything else.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

That's like saying women are too busy menstruating to take part in sports. I doubt transitioning is so time consuming they don't have time for anything else.

Woildnt the medicines they take get them banned under current regulations?

[GoldHeart]

The problem is the assumption that they all want to compete in women's sports ,but that's not the case atall. .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

The problem is the assumption that they all want to compete in women's sports ,but that's not the case atall. .

Nobody has said that

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Nobody has said that

I don't mean in this thread Niamh, I'm talking about in general. There was a trans bodybuilding who had misinformation spread about her wanting to compete in women's sports.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I don't mean in this thread Niamh, I'm talking about in general. There was a trans bodybuilding who had misinformation spread about her wanting to compete in women's sports.

so if true that is one specific example

Not

In general

[Conzors]

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Woildnt the medicines they take get them banned under current regulations?

In the states with Joe Bidens new bill all you need do is say which gender you identify as, no medication required

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.

I don't identify as a cis woman, I identify as a biological woman.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In the states with Joe Bidens new bill all you need do is say which gender you identify as, no medication required

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..

I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..



I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.

If women could just identify out of being women that easily our lives in general would be a lot easier

[bitontheslide]

people are just trying to muddy the waters and create conflict and confusion in my humble opinion. Sports should continue to by categorized by biological sex. If within those sex categories there are different genders ... that is something the world will need to get used to, but at least the fairness of competition will be maintained.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..

I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.

They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

Then shouldn't they be treated like all the other men who cant make the grade in that case, as that would maintain their acceptance level fairly.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

FC Dallas under-15 boys beat the USA Women's National team 5-2