[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

We see everyone rightfully mocking Starmers non-attempt at taking responsibility, whereas the man bragging about shaking hands as the pandemic hit here, hasn't attended one funeral, or phoned one family of the covid dead.

… he’s kept his vaccine targets obviously and that’s wonderful ….but it doesn’t wipe away everything that came before and his accountability to those grieving families who will never see their loved ones again…

…and there’s the children he was shamed into feeding as well by a football player…and the lack of PPE/protection for our health care workers, despite the advisements….

[Liam-]

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

… he’s kept his vaccine targets obviously and that’s wonderful ….but it doesn’t wipe away everything that came before and his accountability to those grieving families who will never see their loved ones again…

…and there’s the children he was shamed into feeding as well by a football player…and the lack of PPE/protection for our health care workers, despite the advisements….

100% agree.
I think it obscene any would now overlook the disaster of the past because he's got one single element right now.

It's an insult to those who've died.
Also to their grieving loved ones.

This is a moment of positivity he has, until the full public inquiry comes, once he DARES to hold it that is and not keep putting it off.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

like with Keir and Angela Rayner

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

like with Keir and Angela Rayner

Keir has been torn to shreds for it, mostly by people in his own party/former lab members. That's the difference.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Much has been said and written in recent days about “Long Corbyn” and
the after-effects on Labour’s perception by voters of having been led by a man
seen as a dangerous extremist. And amid all this, the constant heckling and
criticism from the hard Left provides an entertaining Greek chorus on Starmer’s
efforts to detoxify his party.

His greatest challenge, however, is Johnson’s continued and – to many Labour
strategists – baffling popularity among voters, as illustrated by the
Government’s very respectable performance in last week’s elections.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ot-politician/

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

100% agree.
I think it obscene any would now overlook the disaster of the past because he's got one single element right now.

It's an insult to those who've died.
Also to their grieving loved ones.

This is a moment of positivity he has, until the full public inquiry comes, once he DARES to hold it that is and not keep putting it off.

..I mean, seriously…The Labour Party…(…and I’m no Labour gal…)…and Kier Starmer have no accountability or answerability for one single life, for being shamed into not feeding our children or ignoring advice to prepare and protect our NHS workers,p….and they’re the party being asked do they actually like a nation…what about the party who has placed the harm on a nation…?…no questions for them…?…

[bitontheslide]

as much as people like to criticize Boris, the tories have won the last 4 general elections and done well in local council elections. So, the tory party don't seem to have a problem connecting with voters, labour does. Saying bad Boris, isn't going to win them an election

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I mean, seriously…The Labour Party…(…and I’m no Labour gal…)…and Kier Starmer have no accountability or answerability for one single life, for being shamed into not feeding our children or ignoring advice to prepare and protect our NHS workers,p….and they’re the party being asked do they actually like a nation…what about the party who has placed the harm on a nation…?…no questions for them…?…

None Ammi.
In fact rewards to him it seems for it.

There'll be the usual he's charismatic and a winner tripe soon.

Blair was charismatic and a winner too.

Neither were impressive, or should have been.
Iraq is all Blair's remembered for.

Maybe the bubble will burst for this waste of space too once the public inquiry into covid eventually delivers.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Much has been said and written in recent days about “Long Corbyn” and
the after-effects on Labour’s perception by voters of having been led by a man
seen as a dangerous extremist. And amid all this, the constant heckling and
criticism from the hard Left provides an entertaining Greek chorus on Starmer’s
efforts to detoxify his party.

His greatest challenge, however, is Johnson’s continued and – to many Labour
strategists – baffling popularity among voters, as illustrated by the
Government’s very respectable performance in last week’s elections.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ot-politician/

We pretending you don't keep going back to Corbyn for my benefit?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

as much as people like to criticize Boris, the tories have won the last 4 general elections and done well in local council elections. So, the tory party don't seem to have a problem connecting with voters, labour does. Saying bad Boris, isn't going to win them an election

quite right bots

the elections tell their tale

----------------------------

It shouldn't be a shock to the Left-wing media that people vote Tory

The broadcast media and the cultural elite continue to exist in an echo
chamber detached from the public

I think Boris can safely re-tile the kitchen now. Much of the broadcast media
was convinced his No 10 makeover would hurt him in last Thursday’s
elections: we weren’t far off a Newsnight reconstruction with Lewis Goodall,
dressed as Carrie, running around an animated John Lewis with a can of
petrol. But the mood on Have I Got News for You on Friday, recorded when
the votes weren’t counted but obvious nevertheless, was funereal. Why, the
host asked, didn’t Wallpapergate cut through? Given that this show created
the Boris phenomenon, much like The Apprentice invented Donald Trump, the
confusion is strange.

The beat goes on. Someone at Sheffield University says Darwin justified
white supremacy. A school has reported its own chaplain to an anti-terror
unit. And among the stories on the BBC website, at the time of writing, is a
23-year-old girl who has come out as asexual. How many elections must the
Left lose – how many viewers, how many readers? – before the penny drops
that many people find all this irrelevant? Or that when they vote Tory, it’s
not because they don’t care about standards in public life, but that they can’t
see the scandal in this instance?

And far from being a bunch of little Hitlers, they are drawn to a Tory party
that has cleverly occupied the centre ground of cultural feeling, a centre
ground, incidentally, that is much more liberal than it once was. Just not
completely bonkers.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ple-vote-tory/

and its that middle ground that Labour crave..

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

Playing the blame game….and nobody is to blame but the virus itself. I’ll always say that any UK Gov would have tried its best, got things wrong, got things right...leaders are human beings, imagine a human being making blunders! ....who here would have wanted to be in Boris Johnsons or any leaders shoes? He isn’t a pandemic expert, he could only take advice and direction from this expert and that expert and hope he had got it as right as he could. Maybe posters here could have done it all better if he had only asked for their advice?

Boris had presided over the probably the most successful vaccination programme in the world, if we had had Labour and were still in the EU, thousands upon thousands more would have died, we would still be in the doldrums, doesn't that count at all?

I'm so sick of this point of view of 'bless Boris, he's doing his best.' Would you say the same if it was Corbyn in charge, making the same decisions? I think not.

If a leader can't lead, they should step aside. I'm tired of people making excuses for incompetence and being all like 'WELL WHY DON'T YOU TRY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?'. The answer to that is that, unlike all the PMs in recent memory, I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't be able to run a country, so I don't. If only Boris possessed that same wisdom.

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died in the UK, and who might not have died if we didn't wait until March 2020 for Boris to actually do something when he and the rest of the higher ups in the government knew how bad things would be back in Dec19/Jan20.

I for one don't tolerate epic **** ups and corruption with an 'aw bless him, he's doing his best.' I demand the best from the leadership and if they don't deliver, they don't deserve praise. When a world leader ****s up, people die. That's the reality here. If they can't handle they heat, they can get the **** out of the kitchen and make way for someone who can.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

But isn’t it capitalism that has made the western world so prosperous?
That prosperity came from hard work and ambition, which a Conservative Gov rewards. People aren’t spineless, they want to feel they can aspire to better things, and a Con gov goes hand in hand with aspirations, the rising above your circumstances and bettering yourselves.
People don’t want a party that see themselves and their supporters as victims, they want a can - do attitude and Boris for his part does that very well.

People trust the Cons, they know what to expect….and Labour haven’t had a leader in years that they can say ‘He/she is the one I’d trust to take me over to Labour’.

The cons don't serve the people, they serve the rich which is why public services are constantly being defunded on the tories and government contracts created for the express purpose of giving money to their friends are rife. The government made out if couldn't feed school children last year, but it handed millions to tory backers in the form of these duff government contracts.

I can understand a rich person voting Tory, they're voting in their own best interest, but the tories have managed to convince the working and middle classes to vote against their own best interests and it's honestly pathetic.

Your point of view in this post is very rosy, and sadly unrealistic. The tories do not give people the tools to succeed, they stick the most vulnerable and in need of help among us in cruel schemes aimed at sanctioning them and denying them funds they need to survive. They don't offer opportunities, they crush the poorest among us for the entertainment and satisfaction of other tory voters that convince themselves that they are better, that they aren't just a few bad days away from being one of those people they villify.

The tories make fools of the working and middle classes, and those classes keep going back regardless. Spineless.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

We can't expect Tories to hold their messiah accountable.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm so sick of this point of view of 'bless Boris, he's doing his best.' Would you say the same if it was Corbyn in charge, making the same decisions? I think not.

If a leader can't lead, they should step aside. I'm tired of people making excuses for incompetence and being all like 'WELL WHY DON'T YOU TRY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?'. The answer to that is that, unlike all the PMs in recent memory, I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't be able to run a country, so I don't. If only Boris possessed that same wisdom.

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died in the UK, and who might not have died if we didn't wait until March 2020 for Boris to actually do something when he and the rest of the higher ups in the government knew how bad things would be back in Dec19/Jan20.

I for one don't tolerate epic **** ups and corruption with an 'aw bless him, he's doing his best.' I demand the best from the leadership and if they don't deliver, they don't deserve praise. When a world leader ****s up, people die. That's the reality here. If they can't handle they heat, they can get the **** out of the kitchen and make way for someone who can.

So the leaders of all the other countries did everything perfectly then and avoided loss of life did they? Of course not. They were all fighting an invisible enemy in unprecedented circumstances and I’m afraid the superhuman leader who never does anything wrong that you insist on doesn’t exist and never will.

No countries went into lockdown before March 2020, the same as the UK did as far as I am aware...and you aren’t criticizing the EU’s disastrous vaccine failures which will have cost thousands of lives. Why not?
You appear to only care about the lives lost from the ‘incompetence’
of someone you hate, but not from the incompetence of those you don’t.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

We can't expect Tories to hold their messiah accountable.

It's you who wants a messiah but you are only going to get a fallible human being no matter what party they lead.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died

It means little to the thousands who have already died so just let thousands more die, it means little that they are now being saved, unlike in the EU, eh? Listen to yourself.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

So the leaders of all the other countries did everything perfectly then and avoided loss of life did they? Of course not. They were all fighting an invisible enemy in unprecedented circumstances and I’m afraid the superhuman leader who never does anything wrong that you insist on doesn’t exist and never will.

No countries went into lockdown before March 2020, the same as the UK did as far as I am aware...and you aren’t criticizing the EU’s disastrous vaccine failures which will have cost thousands of lives. Why not?
You appear to only care about the lives lost from the ‘incompetence’
of someone you hate, but not from the incompetence of those you don’t.

What other countries did is largely irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that lives were lost when this government knew how bad things were gonna be way before they got bad and did nothing. It doesn't matter if other countries had the same failures, it doesn't change the fact that this government could have taken pre-emptive measures, and they did not.

You may accept mediocrity from the people running this country, but I do not. I have standards.

I don't give a **** about the EU's rollout, it's irrelevant to how we are doing, you're just engaging in endless distractions by making things out to be a competition and that our failures don't matter as long as we're winning and that's a grotesque thing to do. I'm sure everyone who has lost someone is so happy to know that we're doing better than other countries when it comes to vaccinations, I'm sure that makes their loss so much easier that people are treating this pandemic like a ****ing league table.

I care about lives being lost that could have been saved, I don't allow distractions for the easily pleased to take away from the fact that we handled this pandemic badly, that we should have done better and that it was down to the government being slow on the uptake.

Your last non-points just shows how little you understand of what I'm saying, as usual.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

It's you who wants a messiah but you are only going to get a fallible human being no matter what party they lead.

I just want a competent government that isn't corrupt, I'm not after a messiah. It's a shame you're so used to corruption and incompetence that you think someone who would be just competent would worthy of being called a 'messiah.' It's such a shame your standards have fallen so much that you'd accept the bull**** this government has engaged in.

Again, 'I know you are but what am I?' just isn't working for you. Try something new for a change.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

It means little to the thousands who have already died so just let thousands more die, it means little that they are now being saved, unlike in the EU, eh? Listen to yourself.

I didn't say that, learn the basics of how to ****ing read before you shove such a vile sentiment down my throat.

Where did I say we should let more people die? I said that the vaccine efforts don't undo the damage that's been done by a sluggish government that was all too slow to act when all this began, when they knew in advance how bad things would be?

How the **** did you turn that into 'let more people die lol!'. I'm so ****ing tired of having to explain things multiple times to you because you can't tell the difference between what I actually wrote and the version you've just dreamt up in your head. Sort it the **** out, Jet.

[bitontheslide]

i wish this thread could concentrate on the issues with the labour party, they are the ones not being elected and are not even a realistic opposition party. We can moan about the tories, but unless labour become a viable alternative option, we will have tory governments for the foreseeable future

[parmnion]

I think it's all this finger pointing and ridiculing by the labour party and its supporters against anyone who shows any sort of support for the tory party that's made the Tory party as strong as it is.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i wish this thread could concentrate on the issues with the labour party, they are the ones not being elected and are not even a realistic opposition party. We can moan about the tories, but unless labour become a viable alternative option, we will have tory governments for the foreseeable future

As a Labour party member, I was interested in the points being raised reasonably on the issues and problems Labour has.
..... and it has problems indeed in certain areas of England definitely.

You bots were making good points I mentioned here and elsewhere, because as a member of the Party, I believe we need to listen to the professional politicians less and to the voters who are in disarray of a political homeland now.


You and I don't agree on politics, we haven't much on the pandemic.
However I've seen good thinking, reasoned from you on this topic.

However I hoped to learn more from those others who can and do try to reason.
I'm not interested in those who just hate Labour anyway.

Labour has to get it's house in order, we as members of it need to listen to those of opposing reasoned views, not just pathetic insulting of the party and it's supporters..

To learn from listening a better way forward.

The Cons sadly are the natural party of government in the nation.
Although that's mainly only in England now.
Labour were rabid and string oppositions in the main.
Then got their opportunities in government, more often once the Cons badly failed, not necessarily because of Labour itself.

I got some things to take from the earlier comments on this thread.
I agree however, and am desperately sad to admit to it, England will inflict only Con government across all the Nations of the UK unless Labour listen and give ourselves a massive shake to really wake up.

Scotland is lost for as long as the SNP is strong.
Labour votes are massively in the SNP camp.
I've no issue with that.
The SNP policies aside from independence are policies I support and in line with Labour's.
No way with the Cons.

Labour still is held onto as to Wales.

It's the some areas of England that's a growing problem for Labour.

Which is why, I and a growing number of party members and even Labour MPs now.
Favour PR for elections.

I really believe absolute power is not a good thing.
Either in the Labour years to 2010 or since then to now.

If I had full influence and power in the Party, I'd be advocating now, to make PR the key policy going forward.
It's a policy which would get the support of the other Parties elected to Westminster and their supporters, including the awful DUP even.

The Cons would be in absolute panic since it would likely remove any Party again gaining absolute power on only around 40% of voters votes cast ever.
Only the Cons and the majority but not all, of their supporters would be against PR.

True and fair elections, or words to that effect, could be a policy that unites to bring it about.
Leaving only the Cons sidelined by it.
Yes Labour under PR would never likely get an overall majority to govern alone.
However neither again would the Cons either.

That would be the prize of PR for me

[Ammi]

…I think that it is important to look at both parties because it’s all entwined in how the voting is being cast, it all has equal relevance…and a serving government should always be questioned and challenged that ‘they’re working in the best interest of the people….’…and not self serving …we always say if constituents have issues etc…you should speak to your MP and raise this issue because that’s absolutely right and the same would apply to a country leader and even more so…especially when that leader has expressed some very questionable things in terms of whether they ‘actually like Britain’ or demographics of Britain with herd immunity talk, we were outraged and that he himself observed little personal safety as a ‘leader’ when we were facing a life threatening pandemic virus….

…anyways, I think there seem to be lots of ‘float votes’ atm and those are the votes that Labour should be taking but they aren’t so they seriously must look at that and why they can’t gain that confidence …Kier Starmer for me is not the guy to ‘save Labour’….I think that maintaining that leading government position is so much easier than taking it…that would require a very strong and popular leader and his popularity seems more ‘Liberal Democrat’ than Labour….I don’t feel he’s been that successful in challenging his opposition in a difficult time that challenge has been so important…so how could we have faith in him as a country strength, he really is just not that person ….and now that we seem to be coming through COVID, I guess there could be a better the devil you know or better the devil you went through with and came through with for some as well…some of those ‘float votes’….


….I really dislike politics because if we have a leader that isn’t so good then it impacts all of us, regardless of who we vote for….and if we have a strong leader working for the people, then we all feel that strength and benefit….


…I’m not sure who would be a good leader for Labour to start climbing those steep steps, Joey would be the better one to say with that…

[joeysteele]

Well Ammi for me, the times I've had a vote for leader of Labour since joining it, has been Andy Burnham, I hold massive respect for Andy.

Or I'd go for someone who really seems to connect we, although not so well known at present.
Someone like Wes Streeting.

On the female possible candidates.
Rachel Reeves commands a lot of respect across parliament and politics I think.

I would love to see those 3 as a front line team.