[Ammi]

…the design of this was always to be confrontational and not conversational, though….the fliers that the lady posted were a public/social media invitation to an ‘anti-pedo protest’…there were members of both QAnon and Antifa there, it had an agenda that was only ever meant to incite and aggravate, really…and sadly it’s the exact thing that only makes that conversation which needs to happen, more and more difficult…

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…the design of this was always to be confrontational and not conversational, though….the fliers that the lady posted were a public/social media invitation to an ‘anti-pedo protest’…there were members of both QAnon and Antifa there, it had an agenda that was only ever meant to incite and aggravate, really…and sadly it’s the exact thing that only makes that conversation which needs to happen, more and more difficult…

Antifa is far worse, Violent Left Wing Mob
though.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Interesting comment from the Independent article on this:

" It is outrageous that the feelings of a fraction of a percent of the population - deluded men with a colossal sense of male entitlement - should override the safeguarding of 50 percent of the population. This was an adult man exposing his genitals to women and little girls in a women-only safe space. A few years ago he would have been prosecuted, now he is defended and the women who complain are vilified - what the hell is going on?"

My overwhelming feeling is still that in the end there will be no winners at the end of all of this. As it hits the mainstream consciousness more and more, the entire trans and very possibly the entire LGBTQ community is going to come under fire for the aggressive actions of a few.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Pretty much, LT is relying on right wing propaganda instead of reliable news sources so this story is something that cannot be discussed in good faith without knowing the facts.

Hopefully LT will learn from his mistakes and learn to distinguish between a news source and propaganda.

I hate right right propaganda, remember when they wanted us all to believe Biden was a creepy old pervert when they supported Trump of all people .

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by arista

Antifa is far worse, Violent Left Wing Mob
though.

..I’m not getting into who is worse that who, that’s so playground, Arista…the point that I was making is that the flier that was posted was designed to cause exactly what it has…

[LeatherTrumpet]

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My overwhelming feeling is still that in the end there will be no winners at the end of all of this. As it hits the mainstream consciousness more and more, the entire trans and very possibly the entire LGBTQ community is going to come under fire for the aggressive actions of a few.

…this is exactly what this ‘conversation’ doesn’t need and will only make it more and more difficult and less likely….because the situation is being hijacked by bigotry IMO…

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by arista

Antifa is far worse, Violent Left Wing Mob
though.

No lgbtq member will admit that, and non LGBTQ members will just deflect and sweep the accusation under the table.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…this is exactly what this ‘conversation’ doesn’t need and will only make it more and more difficult and less likely….because the situation is being hijacked by bigotry IMO…

Genuine Bigotry on one side and unfounded (and in my opinion, often disingenuous and weaponised) accusations of bigotry on the other. It’s a mess all round and one feeds into the other; on the one hand genuine bigots can hide behind people who want a genuine conversation and pretend that they are not just bigots… on the other, it’s easier for people to throw accusations of “TERF” and “transphobe” at those people who just want a genuine conversation, if those people have genuine bigots clinging to their coat tails.

The result at the end of the day is that there can be no good faith political/academic discussion of the best way forward while there are genuinely hateful people screaming on one side, and aggressive moral-absolutist children chanting on the other.

It’s a flat-out dangerous discussion. We can discuss it in theory on a small anonymous platform like TiBB but in the open? Under my own name? Frankly - I simply am not prepared to take the sort of very real personal flak that comes with even trying to have that debate with anything resembling nuance.

[Marsh.]

Have we really come to a place where whether exposed adult genitals around children is appropriate or not is an actual debate?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Genuine Bigotry on one side and unfounded (and in my opinion, often disingenuous and weaponised) accusations of bigotry on the other. It’s a mess all round and one feeds into the other; on the one hand genuine bigots can hide behind people who want a genuine conversation and pretend that they are not just bigots… on the other, it’s easier for people to throw accusations of “TERF” and “transphobe” at those people who just want a genuine conversation, if those people have genuine bigots clinging to their coat tails.

The result at the end of the day is that there can be no good faith political/academic discussion of the best way forward while there are genuinely hateful people screaming on one side, and aggressive moral-absolutist children chanting on the other.

It’s a flat-out dangerous discussion. We can discuss it in theory on a small anonymous platform like TiBB but in the open? Under my own name? Frankly - I simply am not prepared to take the sort of very real personal flak that comes with even trying to have that debate with anything resembling nuance.

…I think that there are some ‘genuine sides’ who would be fine and open to discuss it…(…I don’t like the use of ‘sides’ as a term as such because I think there is quite a bit of common ground but there is a lot of progression still to get with conversations…)….but I’ve stated before that I feel there is some disingenuous intent and jumping on a bandwagon when I refer to bigotry…sexism and lack of support for many feminist related issues until the ‘transgender’ flag is waved and then …oh….

…as I say, I don’t feel that this is a good place to have such conversations but I do appreciate that there is some genuine willingness to have them from some and that’s sad and frustrating also…

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Have we really come to a place where whether exposed adult genitals around children is appropriate or not is an actual debate?

sadly in crazy California

yes

and if you disagree then a large number of people will attack you physically and try to seriously injure you

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…I think that there are some ‘genuine sides’ who would be fine and open to discuss it…(…I don’t like the use of ‘sides’ as a term as such because I think there is quite a hit of common ground but there is a lot of progression still to get with conversations…)….but I’ve stated before that I feel there is some disingenuous intent and jumping on a bandwagon when I refer to bigotry…sexism and lack of support for many feminist related issues until the ‘transgender’ flag is waved and then …oh….

…as I say, I don’t feel that this is a good place to have such conversations but I do appreciate that there is some genuine willingness to have them from some and that’s sad and frustrating also…

I honestly think the vast majority of people (women, trans community, everyone) is more than open to the discussion but the fringes on both sides are so dogmatic and aggressive that it simply literally isn’t safe to do so. In fact I don’t just think, I know. I personally know academics who have withdrawn from research and academic discussion of these issues because of the level of threats, intimidation and harassment. It is extremely worrying.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I honestly think the vast majority of people (women, trans community, everyone) is more than open to the discussion but the fringes on both sides are so dogmatic and aggressive that it simply literally isn’t safe to do so. In fact I don’t just think, I know. I personally know academics who have withdrawn from research and academic discussion of these issues because of the level of threats, intimidation and harassment. It is extremely worrying.

…it’s definitely a conversation that has to be had, it’s quite concerning not to have it because there are genuine fears that are going to build as fears do…there is no other direction for them other than to build… but the Internet, sites like this and social media …are not the places because there are other agendas injected into it as well…I’m not sure what the solution to that one is tbh….

[Cherie]

Meanwhile in the UK the High court rules its lawful for women to feel anxious or unsafe in prison and upholds the rights of transgender women over women

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993
It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.
A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.
She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.
The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.
Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.
The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".
The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.
The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.


n a judgement handed down via email, Lord Justice Holroyd accepted the statistical evidence showed proportion of trans prisoners convicted of sexual offences was "substantially higher" than for non-transgender men and women prisoners
But he said this specific claim was a "misuse of the statistics, which... are so low in number, and so lacking in detail, that they are an unsafe basis for general conclusions".
Between 2016 and 2019, 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women's prisons, the judgement said. Of these, it appears that seven were committed by transgender prisoners without a GRC. It is not known whether any were committed by transgender women with a GRC.
As of March 2019, there were 34 transgender women without GRCs allocated to a woman's prison. The number of transgender prisoners with a certificate is thought to be in single-figures across the prison population as a whole.
The judge said he "fully understood" the concerns of FDJ, and that women prisoners "may suffer fear and acute anxiety" if housed with a transgender woman who has male genitalia.
But he added that the rights of transgender women prisoners must also be considered.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Meanwhile in the UK the High court rules its lawful for women to feel anxious or unsafe in prison and upholds the rights of transgender women over women

The judge said he "fully understood" the concerns of FDJ, and that women prisoners "may suffer fear and acute anxiety" if housed with a transgender woman who has male genitalia.

But he added that the rights of transgender women prisoners must also be considered

Women losing out to males, just to make a nice change.

Why should a male who identifies as a woman have their rights considered over actual women?

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Have we really come to a place where whether exposed adult genitals around children is appropriate or not is an actual debate?

Pretty much what I thought. Regardless of how the male identifies, the person shouldn't have been fully naked around women and children.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Andy Ngo is known for working with the proud boys to agitate against the left, then misreport, the other dude is a newsmax contributor and the blaze is a far right, nativist organisation set up and run by Glenn beck who has a history of lies.

i have no idea what the actual sequence of events were, but we need to some proper reporting on it before an honest conclusion or opinion can be reached.

Translated

I know Andy Ngo continually provides video proof of left wingers terrorising communities, but if I say he hangs out with the proud boys, then you should forgive the terririsers and hate him instead

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Alf

Translated

I know Andy Ngo continually provides video proof of left wingers terrorising communities, but if I say he hangs out with the proud boys, then you should forgive the terririsers and hate him instead

shut down tactic Alf

as we both know

[Captain.Remy]

Exposed adult genitals around children is never OK whether you're a transgender person or not.

To answer some questions about why that person was allowed or is considered as a woman, it can help to know that some countries/states allow updating gender on legal documents based on either self-identification or based on proof of medical procedure for gender reassignment. I'm unsure if that person is from California or not and I'm not fully aware of California laws for gender legal update, but that's a beginning of an answer.

It's a shame these kind of actions happen and let's not take it out to the whole communities because those are isolated incidents (and again, exposed adult genitals in public places are not OK whether you're a cis person or trans). It's a tough discussion to have on both ends of the spectrums (same as trans people in sports etc)

[Withano]

What a weird story

Made even weirder by factually inaccurate video descriptions

Transphobic people get violent, but back away hurt because Antifa are willing to fight back in groups

Nobody comes off well here. And nobody is talking about trans-rights or trans-laws

This is just aggression for fun

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Withano

What a weird story

Made even weirder by factually inaccurate video descriptions

Transphobic people get violent, but back away hurt because Antifa are willing to fight back in groups

Nobody comes off well here. And nobody is talking about trans-rights or trans-laws

This is just aggression for fun

What rights that superced a child?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

based on proof of medical procedure for gender reassignment.

That'd be even worse, imagine sharing the water with an open genital wound

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

shut down tactic Alf

as we both know

By the same token, if you know that, you should know that some links cause people to endlessly whinge about the source instead of the story itself...