[Tony Montana]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Patchy. It takes about a season to find its feet, then gets good for a while, then great for a while after Morgan arrived and (spoilerish - not specific story spoilers)

Spoiler:

”The Big Cast Change” - they basically changed the entire cast, only 3 of the original cast remaining)

Although the second half of the most recent season was a little messy. However that may partly be down to filming under Covid restrictions. A lot of shows got a little messy for a while there…

On balance, if you like TWD it’s definitely worth watching, unless you for some reason hated Morgan, as he is essentially the “Rick” of the show from S4 onwards. Yes if you were wondering where Morgan disappeared to in S8 walking dead - the answer is Texas .

A lot of people also disliked many of the S1 characters but even if you do it’s worth carrying on with because, walking dead being walking dead, obviously characters come and go.

Cheers TS, I loved Morgan in TWD so I'm looking forward to seeing him again, hopefully he'll be as brutal and willing to kill like he was in season 8.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

and another thing

Spoiler:

How on Earth did she escape those walkers without getting bit, there were at least 6 right on top of her

Spoiler:

It's always been one of the sillier bits of plot armour. A minor character encounters one walker and gets a chunk instantly taken out of them... or a character can be totally swamped and fighting them off from literally on top of them and not one little tooth gets through . Also just the fact that they know one bite is a death sentence but they don't wear things like chain or tough leather armour as standard, even just on their arms and legs, when that would definitely stop a walker bite (and is clearly the purpose of the shiny Commonwealth armour). Actually reminded me a bit of Glen scrambling under the dumpster without so much as a scratch.

The other thing that's been bugging me is that it was clear at the end of the last season that Lydia has the effortless ability to "walk with the dead" as a whisperer, and even Negan had learned it relatively quickly (I think in the space of a few months?). Most characters have to use the "guts trick" which we know they don't use often because of the risk (like poor Gabe lol) ... but A) they haven't thought to have them teach this skill to others and B) we've now seen both of them encounter walkers and NOT use that skill . Instead of Lydia fighting the large group in the warehouse head on like the others, they should have had her "fade back" into the walkers and start taking them out stealthily from the back... like her "special ability" if she was a game character or something... but also why couldn't Negan do the same in the tunnels? In theory, neither of those characters should be at risk from walkers, we've seen them walking with hundreds of them. . Maybe Negan does need to be "smelly" to do it. But it was made pretty clear that it's easy-peasy for Lydia.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

Fantastic opener I'm loving the tension between Negan and Maggie. I can't say I blame him for not saving her, if the roles were reversed Maggie would've 100% left him too.

Yeah but Maggie has a genuine reason to hate Negan, he did club her husband to death in front of her, he should be trying to make that up and feel guilty about it, enough to save her imo

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah but Maggie has a genuine reason to hate Negan, he did club her husband to death in front of her, he should be trying to make that up and feel guilty about it, enough to save her imo

That's where it gets unrealistic really. You CAN make excuses for Negan that mean other people might be willing to accept that he's "done his time"; it was wartime, the attack on the outpost was actually pretty immoral, he genuinely believed his own **** about it being for the greater good, he has done things to redeem himself in some people's eyes (saving Judith, killing Alpha etc.) and also it's meant to have been like 8 or 9 years at this point.

The issue is that realistically none of those reasons would matter to Maggie... there's no way she'd let it go even if in her time away she'd changed so much that she was 100% on-board with his reasoning. It wouldn't matter because it was so personal and that's just how people are... when it's your own family objectivity goes out the window.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Spoiler:

It's always been one of the sillier bits of plot armour. A minor character encounters one walker and gets a chunk instantly taken out of them... or a character can be totally swamped and fighting them off from literally on top of them and not one little tooth gets through . Also just the fact that they know one bite is a death sentence but they don't wear things like chain or tough leather armour as standard, even just on their arms and legs, when that would definitely stop a walker bite (and is clearly the purpose of the shiny Commonwealth armour). Actually reminded me a bit of Glen scrambling under the dumpster without so much as a scratch.

The other thing that's been bugging me is that it was clear at the end of the last season that Lydia has the effortless ability to "walk with the dead" as a whisperer, and even Negan had learned it relatively quickly (I think in the space of a few months?). Most characters have to use the "guts trick" which we know they don't use often because of the risk (like poor Gabe lol) ... but A) they haven't thought to have them teach this skill to others and B) we've now seen both of them encounter walkers and NOT use that skill . Instead of Lydia fighting the large group in the warehouse head on like the others, they should have had her "fade back" into the walkers and start taking them out stealthily from the back... like her "special ability" if she was a game character or something... but also why couldn't Negan do the same in the tunnels? In theory, neither of those characters should be at risk from walkers, we've seen them walking with hundreds of them. . Maybe Negan does need to be "smelly" to do it. But it was made pretty clear that it's easy-peasy for Lydia.

Spoiler:

That's exactly what Gav said too straight away that the Glen Dumpster incident was as bad. You're thinking there's no way in hell they didn't get bit there and when they come out without so much as a nibble you're thinking hhmmm no chance

Yeah exactly, Eskiel and his crew used to wear armour but they kind gave that up.........why?

Maybe the "walking amongst the dead" only works if they haven't seen you run around like a live person first?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Spoiler:

That's exactly what Gav said too straight away that the Glen Dumpster incident was as bad. You're thinking there's no way in hell they didn't get bit there and when they come out without so much as a nibble you're thinking hhmmm no chance

Yeah exactly, Eskiel and his crew used to wear armour but they kind gave that up.........why?

Maybe the "walking amongst the dead" only works if they haven't seen you run around like a live person first?

Hmmm I guess maybe they have some sort of short-term memory, we'll go with that . To be fair, the Whisperererers did a couple of times have to kill "Guardians" who came into the camp and started attacking, so that sort of makes sense, as otherwise they could all just go into "zombiemode" and not be at risk so they wouldn't have had to kill the walkers.

[Nicky91]

honestly i also went full on Negan-mode somehow, on one guy in telltale twd new frontier

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

hopefully he'll be as brutal and willing to kill like he was in season 8.

Spoiler:

He's on-and-off with that philosophy... there was a great scene towards the end of the most recent though, Morgan in full stick-ninja-mode poking bad guys full of holes whilst outnumbered like 5 on 1

[Nicky91]

i now feel differently how my opinion is like towards the walkers (thx to telltale final season, my moment as a ''whisperer'' in the shed, that indeed being between walkers and watching them listen to music is very nice to see) they aren't just ''monsters''

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Spoiler:

It's always been one of the sillier bits of plot armour. A minor character encounters one walker and gets a chunk instantly taken out of them... or a character can be totally swamped and fighting them off from literally on top of them and not one little tooth gets through . Also just the fact that they know one bite is a death sentence but they don't wear things like chain or tough leather armour as standard, even just on their arms and legs, when that would definitely stop a walker bite (and is clearly the purpose of the shiny Commonwealth armour). Actually reminded me a bit of Glen scrambling under the dumpster without so much as a scratch.

The other thing that's been bugging me is that it was clear at the end of the last season that Lydia has the effortless ability to "walk with the dead" as a whisperer, and even Negan had learned it relatively quickly (I think in the space of a few months?). Most characters have to use the "guts trick" which we know they don't use often because of the risk (like poor Gabe lol) ... but A) they haven't thought to have them teach this skill to others and B) we've now seen both of them encounter walkers and NOT use that skill . Instead of Lydia fighting the large group in the warehouse head on like the others, they should have had her "fade back" into the walkers and start taking them out stealthily from the back... like her "special ability" if she was a game character or something... but also why couldn't Negan do the same in the tunnels? In theory, neither of those characters should be at risk from walkers, we've seen them walking with hundreds of them. . Maybe Negan does need to be "smelly" to do it. But it was made pretty clear that it's easy-peasy for Lydia.

I suppose it would depend on the mission. If they were required to collect and carry things from A to B, they could easily attract the attention of a walker because walkers can differentiate between human and walker movement (which is why the whisperers had to learn to 'walk like a walker'). Plus, it would perhaps be more difficult to complete certain tasks when surrounded by a horde?

[Smithy]

This is really random bc I haven’t watched the show in years but I was out for brunch with my friend yesterday and we bumped into David Morrissey (who played the governor) and he was so nice and I got a picture with him

[Nicky91]

episode 2

such an amazing start to this final season



ummm so my thoughts on the new groups

Commonwealth

Spoiler:

i don't quite trust them yet, but maybe it is me having been into the telltale game, somehow they remind me of New Frontier, with their ways of quarantaine upon arrival of new people, and Mercer i find looking like quite an asshole no offense

Reapers

Spoiler:

on first appearance they look not too friendly, but idk yet, maybe they might turn out to be the good guys here with just their own ways of survival etc, who knows maybe the people who they had been hanging there were commonwealth soldiers for all we know


also Leah being part of them makes me wonder, if they are truly bad either, since Leah/Daryl had a friendship before she had disappeared, and Dog's first owner

.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Smithy

This is really random bc I haven’t watched the show in years but I was out for brunch with my friend yesterday and we bumped into David Morrissey (who played the governor) and he was so nice and I got a picture with him

David is very nice, i like his reaction videos on some of these newer episodes

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah but Maggie has a genuine reason to hate Negan, he did club her husband to death in front of her, he should be trying to make that up and feel guilty about it, enough to save her imo

Exactly.

The writing trying to make Maggie seem like the bad guy in this is simply ridiculous and I hate to say it, but it's also immoral.

Also what do the writers want from Negan? First he is a serial killer + serial rapist, then he gets slowly redeemed into the group, now he leaves Maggie to die.

Why doesn't his writing ever make sense? It reminds me of Spike from Buffy all over again, only even more stupid with Negan which is quite the achievement.

[Nicky91]

Maggie giving Negan a gun to help out against the walkers



@Mock did she die? umm no Maggie is a resourceful, skilled woman, Negan knows that, and if i were in Negan's position there i would've done the same, i mean you don't go saving someone who wants you dead




also The Reapers, they weren't in the comics, sooo they for the first time steered clear from those in this final season



from the extra episodes of season 10, we already know their leader is a man named ''Pope''

what we know more is they run Meridian now, formerly run by Maggie and her group and Pope has marked Maggie for death, so i think she has done something bad to him to deserve that death sentence only my theory of course

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

@Mock did she die? umm no Maggie is a resourceful, skilled woman, Negan knows that, and if i were in Negan's position there i would've done the same, i mean you don't go saving someone who wants you dead

Nah I think it is bad writing. Negan has been written as resourceful and clever also - and would have known she had a good chance at escaping that situation unaided (as you said). It would be different if he thought she was definitely screwed, then he might have let her die. However, in a situation where she might survive anyway, the "right" writing would have been for Negan to dramatically "save her" - as he would be well aware that he could then use that to his advantage with the group and possibly even Maggie herself. Maybe not enough to get Maggie on-side but the rest of the group would, from then on, have been much more hesitant in totally siding with her on her "I want Negan dead" quest. Would also win him brownie points back home when the story got around.

As it is, I think they are potentially setting up a situation where Maggie accepts that Negan "has changed". I don't actually think that's bad writing of NEGAN, though, he was locked up for the best part of a decade and it's very possible that he has genuinely changed... but it is bad writing of Maggie - who would literally be the one character who realistically would never accept him, no matter the circumstances.

[Toy Soldier]

A brief thought regarding Episode 3:

Spoiler:

Didn't Negan get hit in the leg with an arrow? How come he's walking totally fine by the end of the episode? That's a deep-tissue injury and at serious risk of infection! He's just walked it off . They could at least have shown him disinfecting & bandaging it.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nah I think it is bad writing. Negan has been written as resourceful and clever also - and would have known she had a good chance at escaping that situation unaided (as you said). It would be different if he thought she was definitely screwed, then he might have let her die. However, in a situation where she might survive anyway, the "right" writing would have been for Negan to dramatically "save her" - as he would be well aware that he could then use that to his advantage with the group and possibly even Maggie herself. Maybe not enough to get Maggie on-side but the rest of the group would, from then on, have been much more hesitant in totally siding with her on her "I want Negan dead" quest. Would also win him brownie points back home when the story got around.

As it is, I think they are potentially setting up a situation where Maggie accepts that Negan "has changed". I don't actually think that's bad writing of NEGAN, though, he was locked up for the best part of a decade and it's very possible that he has genuinely changed... but it is bad writing of Maggie - who would literally be the one character who realistically would never accept him, no matter the circumstances.

Negan was broken at first, after the death of his wife, that was what led him to become leader of Saviors


i think the first one who gotten through to his real side, must've been Carl, since that letter he was given by him, he really liked that

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

Negan was broken at first, after the death of his wife, that was what led him to become leader of Saviors


i think the first one who gotten through to his real side, must've been Carl, since that letter he was given by him, he really liked that

I think Negan basically bought his own BS - he genuinely believed they were doing more harm than good and that everything would descend into chaos without the Saviours. They also palmed off most of the saviour's worst attrocities (exterminating the Oceanside men, for example) on Simon and a "rogue group" though I think that was a bit of a deus ex machina.

And you could then argue that in his years locked up, he realised that he had it wrong. That makes sense in terms of his plotline with The Whisperers, too. I think he basically sees himself mirrored in Alpha, he knows that her ideas and methods are utterly crazy, but he can see that SHE genuinely believes it's "right". He takes so long to kill her because he hopes he can bring her round to doing things differently and she can change, too. But then after Hilltop and the conversation that follows, he realises that it's never going to happen so he has to go ahead with the origina plan and kill her.

See I honestly don't think negan is a badly written character - there are a few minor points that cause trouble and could easily have been left out. One is his "wives". They go to great lengths to suggest that Negan is not "a rapist", he says as much himself, that he hates anyone who would do that, and kills one of his men for attempting to attack Sasha. But then he has his group of wives who he claims are all "there voluntarily" because they're never literally forced . That is not how consent works, TWD writers, it's made abundantly clear that these women have been coerced into the "job" of being his wives and thus it is absolutely rape when he has sex with them. I mean FFS, Sherry only agreed to marry him to save her own actual husband's life. They could have left the Harem o' Wives out completely - OR had it be a group who had genuinely pretended they wanted to be with him in order to live more comfortably (you could even have them still secretly hating him and plotting to kill him, with him oblivious and thinking they're genuinely happy).

The other point isthe "second kill" (Glenn). I think it was done for shock value, which is the worst part really. But it makes all of the stuff happening now harder to accept. IMO even if Glenn had to go and Maggie had to be widowed, a "cleaner" way to do it would have been to have him kill Abraham like what happens, then instead of Darly jumping up (which gets Glenn killed) just have it be Glenn that jumps up and attacks Negan, and one of the other Saviours shoots & kills him when he tries. You have mainly the same effect but without it actually being Negan that killed Glenn, making it MUCH more likely that Maggie - who would still blame him - could come around.

As it stands, it just doesn't make sense. Negan wouldn't even be on this mission with them, realistically. Even if she begrudgingly accepted that he's being allowed to live free in Alexandria... he'd be cooling his heels helping out with wall repairs, not tagging along on a vital mission. "He's the only one who knows the city" is a crappy excuse.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think Negan basically bought his own BS - he genuinely believed they were doing more harm than good and that everything would descend into chaos without the Saviours. They also palmed off most of the saviour's worst attrocities (exterminating the Oceanside men, for example) on Simon and a "rogue group" though I think that was a bit of a deus ex machina.

And you could then argue that in his years locked up, he realised that he had it wrong. That makes sense in terms of his plotline with The Whisperers, too. I think he basically sees himself mirrored in Alpha, he knows that her ideas and methods are utterly crazy, but he can see that SHE genuinely believes it's "right". He takes so long to kill her because he hopes he can bring her round to doing things differently and she can change, too. But then after Hilltop and the conversation that follows, he realises that it's never going to happen so he has to go ahead with the origina plan and kill her.

See I honestly don't think negan is a badly written character - there are a few minor points that cause trouble and could easily have been left out. One is his "wives". They go to great lengths to suggest that Negan is not "a rapist", he says as much himself, that he hates anyone who would do that, and kills one of his men for attempting to attack Sasha. But then he has his group of wives who he claims are all "there voluntarily" because they're never literally forced . That is not how consent works, TWD writers, it's made abundantly clear that these women have been coerced into the "job" of being his wives and thus it is absolutely rape when he has sex with them. I mean FFS, Sherry only agreed to marry him to save her own actual husband's life. They could have left the Harem o' Wives out completely - OR had it be a group who had genuinely pretended they wanted to be with him in order to live more comfortably (you could even have them still secretly hating him and plotting to kill him, with him oblivious and thinking they're genuinely happy).

The other point isthe "second kill" (Glenn). I think it was done for shock value, which is the worst part really. But it makes all of the stuff happening now harder to accept. IMO even if Glenn had to go and Maggie had to be widowed, a "cleaner" way to do it would have been to have him kill Abraham like what happens, then instead of Darly jumping up (which gets Glenn killed) just have it be Glenn that jumps up and attacks Negan, and one of the other Saviours shoots & kills him when he tries. You have mainly the same effect but without it actually being Negan that killed Glenn, making it MUCH more likely that Maggie - who would still blame him - could come around.

As it stands, it just doesn't make sense. Negan wouldn't even be on this mission with them, realistically. Even if she begrudgingly accepted that he's being allowed to live free in Alexandria... he'd be cooling his heels helping out with wall repairs, not tagging along on a vital mission. "He's the only one who knows the city" is a crappy excuse.

those kills, well it must've felt good to smash someone's brains in (member of Rick's little pathetic group)


hope the Reapers will go for one shocking death too, maybe that pathetic Gabriel bitch


already think Pope will be soooo ICONIC, just based on what he looks like


ooh maybe Stephanie's head on a stake, to completely break poor little wimp Eugene



and that Stephanie ''miss four eyes'' i do not trust either, commonwealth bunch of elitist morons who not belong in the current apocalyptic world with their old ways

[Nicky91]

it just wouldn't surprise me if the reapers aren't the villains, since branding them as the ''villains'' pre-season just seems a bit too boring to give that away


wouldn't surprise me if it was other way around and commonwealth being the bad guys (and those corpses hanging there on trees by reapers, being commonwealth soldiers)



why else do you think commonwealth wants to know Eugene's group their location

[Nicky91]

also the reapers kill people, WOW WOW

the only crime they commit is killing people to keep surviving


as if nobody else had done that either



''killing one in order to save many is part of survival'' its just how that sort of world works


commonwealth comes across to me as wanting to remain in the old ways but comes across like a dictatorship with those strict rules of quarantaine i do not trust that

[Toy Soldier]

Ep 4 spoilers

Spoiler:

Not them using Pope burning someone alive to prove that he's an irredeemable "big bad" when Negan straight up yeeted the Sanctuary doctor into an incinerator . That said, I do think Pope is quite convincingly unhinged as a villain, and well cast. Joseph Seed (Far Cry 5) vibes (one of my all time favourite video game villains, as it happens).


Generally another very good episode overall though. Oh I also have to note, THIS scene:



The way Norman Reedus acts this scene is fascinating. He doesn't have any lines, he doesn't say anything at all, but watch his body language throughout... he's like a kid being intimidated by a parent that could snap at any second. And we know that Daryl had a physically abusive relationship with his actual father, and a complicated relationship with his older brother who was also aggressive and abusive. Unlike Negan who Daryl never backed down from or feared (much to Negan's annoyance) ... might this be hinting that Pope will be able to break Daryl? Are Daryl's daddy issues with this sort of man going to lead to him genuinely sipping the kool-aid? Hmmm.

[Nicky91]

tonight episode 3

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Ep 4 spoilers

Spoiler:

Not them using Pope burning someone alive to prove that he's an irredeemable "big bad" when Negan straight up yeeted the Sanctuary doctor into an incinerator . That said, I do think Pope is quite convincingly unhinged as a villain, and well cast. Joseph Seed (Far Cry 5) vibes (one of my all time favourite video game villains, as it happens).


Generally another very good episode overall though. Oh I also have to note, THIS scene:



The way Norman Reedus acts this scene is fascinating. He doesn't have any lines, he doesn't say anything at all, but watch his body language throughout... he's like a kid being intimidated by a parent that could snap at any second. And we know that Daryl had a physically abusive relationship with his actual father, and a complicated relationship with his older brother who was also aggressive and abusive. Unlike Negan who Daryl never backed down from or feared (much to Negan's annoyance) ... might this be hinting that Pope will be able to break Daryl? Are Daryl's daddy issues with this sort of man going to lead to him genuinely sipping the kool-aid? Hmmm.

Spoiler:

I completely overlooked that scene, but you're right! He seemed genuinely fearful of Pope. I think this could be the character development that Daryl has been needing for a bloody long time. I forget that he and Carol both come from abusive backgrounds... I do wish they'd focus on that a bit more, but hey, there's always the spin-off.

I'm interested to see what's going to happen to Leah... I can't see her surviving this arc, if I'm honest. I'm wondering if there will be some sort of choice (Leah/Connie) in the far future.