[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes its a typical tabloid bull**** troll aimed at gullible ill-informed readers

It's not exactly the first time either Tories or Labour have mistreated NHS staff though is it?

Hopefully for once the Tories don't be stubborn and just backdown from the mistreatment of the NHS workers.

[arista]

[arista]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ed-trusts.html

[arista]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...Christmas.html

[Vanessa]

They definitely deserve a raise.
I'm on minimum wage and get a raise regularly. So I don't see why they can't.

[joeysteele]

I'm 100% supporting all the Nurses who may strike.

This government has treated them like mess on their shoes.
Disgraceful.

I hope they get a good result.

[Soldier Boy]

A big part of the issue with this is because 17% looks so big, but it's being taken in the context of it being a year-on-year sudden request for a large pay rise. Nurses have had a real-terms 20% loss of pay over the last decade due to various pay freezes and insufficient raises in previous years... leading to a sad situation where even with a 17% increase a nurse in 2023 will be significantly worse off than a nurse in 2012.

Another large part of the issue is that with there being large (and ongoing) minimum wage rises - obviously a good thing - the lack of raises for skilled staff becomes a major issue. Starting hourly rate for a nurse who has undergone years of training and taken on tens of thousands in student debt is now barely more than they'd make at Tesco or McDonalds... where all they have to worry about at the end of the day is keeping shelves stocked and putting ketchup on burgers. Having people doing a job where people's physical and mental wellbeing and ultimately their lives are in their hands, for a few £ more a month than they'd make in any minimum wage job, is madness.

It's not just about people being "literally on the breadline" - it's about accepting that trained and experienced medical staff should be paid accordingly, and not be expected to be happy that they get a couple of quid an hour more than Billy at B&M bargains. And less than Billy's manager.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

A big part of the issue with this is because 17% looks so big, but it's being taken in the context of it being a year-on-year sudden request for a large pay rise. Nurses have had a real-terms 20% loss of pay over the last decade due to various pay freezes and insufficient raises in previous years... leading to a sad situation where even with a 17% increase a nurse in 2023 will be significantly worse off than a nurse in 2012.

Another large part of the issue is that with there being large (and ongoing) minimum wage rises - obviously a good thing - the lack of raises for skilled staff becomes a major issue. Starting hourly rate for a nurse who has undergone years of training and taken on tens of thousands in student debt is now barely more than they'd make at Tesco or McDonalds... where all they have to worry about at the end of the day is keeping shelves stocked and putting ketchup on burgers. Having people doing a job where people's physical and mental wellbeing and ultimately their lives are in their hands, for a few £ more a month than they'd make in any minimum wage job, is madness.

It's not just about people being "literally on the breadline" - it's about accepting that trained and experienced medical staff should be paid accordingly, and not be expected to be happy that they get a couple of quid an hour more than Billy at B&M bargains. And less than Billy's manager.

Totally agree with all you have said.
We can’t afford not to respect those people that save lives and work so hard.

[bitontheslide]

most common, decent folk know that the health service needs a serious salary bump, it's about time the same folk tell the government to stop laying the guilt on NHS staff for simply expecting a reasonable salary

[Kazanne]

I have a friend who is a nurse and she has said to me that nurses are not underpaid and not to believe the tabloid hysterical headlines, which I don't anyway, it's more to do with the wastage and mismanagement of the fat cats at the top, one example she gave was a CPAP machines which cost £600 and some are never returned that's is just one example, the waste is huge , so as much as I think they should be looked after and paid a decent wage I don't think it's as bad as the tabloid fodder is feeding people, but that's what they do so well and some just go along believing it. As for strikes it's a no from me as isn't it a vocation ? and people should come before money, IF people die because of it then they can't complain about the government's handling of the pandemic where people died.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I have a friend who is a nurse and she has said to me that nurses are not underpaid and not to believe the tabloid hysterical headlines, which I don't anyway, it's more to do with the wastage and mismanagement of the fat cats at the top, one example she gave was a CPAP machines which cost £600 and some are never returned that's is just one example, the waste is huge , so as much as I think they should be looked after and paid a decent wage I don't think it's as bad as the tabloid fodder is feeding people, but that's what they do so well and some just go along believing it. As for strikes it's a no from me as isn't it a vocation ? and people should come before money, IF people die because of it then they can't complain about the government's handling of the pandemic where people died.

This is the sort of daft mindset that has nurses painted as selfless angels who would happily do it for free and live in a box. It's a skilled medical profession that involves a degree and years of training, and with a level of responsibility and risk management that the vast majority of people will NEVER experience in their career. The pay should reflect those facts, it's not about nurses being "literally starving", it shouldn't be a race to the bottom where everyone accepts poor wages for themselves "because other people have low wages too".

McDonald's is now paying £11/hour to 18 year olds straight out of school, nursing graduates with thousands of hours of training requirements and tens of thousands in student debt required to become nurses start on £13.50 an hour. It's shameful. And it's happened BECAUSE nurses have always been hesitant to push for more, because so many put patient safety above their own wellbeing and above being respected as a workforce. And the government knows that. It's simply gross.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of other professions that are underpaid too - but this mindset of "I get paid a crap salary so why should you get more than me?" is exacty what the Tories love to see. Everyone depserately pulling each other down because they don't want to see others getting more if they aren't getting it themselves.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

IF people die because of it then they can't complain about the government's handling of the pandemic where people died.

Just to add that if (more) people die then they and everyone absolutely can and should complain about the government because they'll be to blame three times over;

1) Under-funding the NHS for a decade and stripping back salaries leading healthcare to where it is now; dangerously understaffed and losing more by the day.

2) Mishandling the pandemic.

3) Mishandling the pay dispute.


The government is to blame for all three. We can all complain 3x as much. Not less.

[Livia]

The average nurse earns around £35k a year. If you earn that salary and have to use a food bank, you may need help with organising your finances.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Livia

The average nurse earns around £35k a year. If you earn that salary and have to use a food bank, you may need help with organising your finances.

Again it's not about needing to use food banks it's about the pay being appropriate to the level of training, expertise and risk management and the fact that it's been devalued by 20% in a decade due to pay freezes. You could say the same about literally any job or career and cut the salary to £30k "because it's enough to get by so stop complaining".

If people can earn just as much doing something that requires less training and is less draining physically and emptionally, then they will. And they are, in increasing numbers. They can't fill the roles... the profession isn't attractive and for good reason. And people are dying because health services are critically understaffed. And because the tactic for filling the void is currently to replace skilled nurses with more and more unskilled healthcare assistants and "nursing associates" and nurses trained overseas who (sorry for the lack of PC here) are simply not trained or competent to the same standard. The cost is lives, it's that simple. Kazanne claims lives are more important than money - apparently not. The government will happily trade lives for a lower payroll.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

This is the sort of daft mindset that has nurses painted as selfless angels who would happily do it for free and live in a box. It's a skilled medical profession that involves a degree and years of training, and with a level of responsibility and risk management that the vast majority of people will NEVER experience in their career. The pay should reflect those facts, it's not about nurses being "literally starving", it shouldn't be a race to the bottom where everyone accepts poor wages for themselves "because other people have low wages too".

McDonald's is now paying £11/hour to 18 year olds straight out of school, nursing graduates with thousands of hours of training requirements and tens of thousands in student debt required to become nurses start on £13.50 an hour. It's shameful. And it's happened BECAUSE nurses have always been hesitant to push for more, because so many put patient safety above their own wellbeing and above being respected as a workforce. And the government knows that. It's simply gross.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of other professions that are underpaid too - but this mindset of "I get paid a crap salary so why should you get more than me?" is exacty what the Tories love to see. Everyone depserately pulling each other down because they don't want to see others getting more if they aren't getting it themselves.

I totally agree with all that.

The Nurses and indeed as with the Junior Doctors shocking treatment by Hunt when he was Health secretary.
Along with all the other NHS staff too will always have my full support.

Even moreso against hard-line Con thinking and continuous failure.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Again it's not about needing to use food banks it's about the pay being appropriate to the level of training, expertise and risk management and the fact that it's been devalued by 20% in a decade due to pay freezes. You could say the same about literally any job or career and cut the salary to £30k "because it's enough to get by so stop complaining".

If people can earn just as much doing something that requires less training and is less draining physically and emptionally, then they will. And they are, in increasing numbers. They can't fill the roles... the profession isn't attractive and for good reason. And people are dying because health services are critically understaffed. And because the tactic for filling the void is currently to replace skilled nurses with more and more unskilled healthcare assistants and "nursing associates" and nurses trained overseas who (sorry for the lack of PC here) are simply not trained or competent to the same standard. The cost is lives, it's that simple. Kazanne claims lives are more important than money - apparently not. The government will happily trade lives for a lower payroll.

Low pay in medical services isn't a new thing. Nurses used to be genuinely poorly paid but that he been addressed and addressed and should continue to be addressed where it applies. However, threatening to strike removes all of my sympathy for them and once the first death occurs during their industrial action their cause will be dead.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Low pay in medical services isn't a new thing. Nurses used to be genuinely poorly paid but that he been addressed and addressed and should continue to be addressed where it applies. However, threatening to strike removes all of my sympathy for them and once the first death occurs during their industrial action their cause will be dead.

It hasn't been taken lightly and is unprecedented, and one of the major reasons for trying so hard to drive meaningful change is that people within the whole medical profession understand all too well that the cost of not sorting it out, properly, and quickly, is going to be staff numbers continuing to drop, staff skills beginning to drop, patient safety being compromised further and ultimately FAR more deaths caused than will be caused by strike action. Unfortunately no the general public won't understand that as the reaction of the general public is just that - reactionary - and most won't see or understand the bigger picture.

So yes it will erode pubic sympathy but that doesn't mean the cause will be dead because frankly... public support and public sympathy isn't worth ****. They've had public support and public sympathy all along. It's worth pats on the back and clapping on the doorstep in the evening (so long as it isn't too cold). Meaningless platitudes. The nurses don't need the backing of the public for strike action to be successful... what the public thinks of it is largely irrelevant. It's too big a profession and too essential to particularly need public backing in industrial action.

Look at the dock workers unions in the US - they have amazing pay and rights. Why? Is it because the public supports their strike action? No it's because when they strike the docks shut down and trade grinds to a halt, money starts being lost immediately, and they can't be replaced with unskilled staff so the negotiations proceed very quickly and favourably. Public opinion is good to have on side but it isn't always a necessary part of leverage.

[arista]

Nurses have set their strike days
15th and 20th Dec


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63746334

[Gusto Brunt]

And that's a period in which there are a lot of accidents that require emmergency treatment.

Often involving booze. And fights. And alcohol poisoning.

But if you trip over in the street, after a Christmas boozy night out, just be prepared to lie face down in the snow for a very long time.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Gusto Brunt

And that's a period in which there are a lot of accidents that require emmergency treatment.

Often involving booze. And fights. And alcohol poisoning.

But if you trip over in the street, after a Christmas boozy night out, just be prepared to lie face down in the snow for a very long time.

Emergency services like A&E aren't striking (they support and join the strike in spirit but it's been decided that they will continue to work for public safety). Obviously there's still going to be cover in things like intensive care units, neonatal units, etc.

[bitontheslide]

the other point is that none of the hospitals are striking in my area at all, it's very much a regional thing, so people may need to travel further, but plenty hospitals are running as normal

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the other point is that none of the hospitals are striking in my area at all, it's very much a regional thing, so people may need to travel further, but plenty hospitals are running as normal

Regional and also by organisation; some unions may strike while others don't. Every region of Scotland voted to strike, though.

[UserSince2005]

Maybe they should think about working a whole year for free to repent for what that evil nurse did to all those children in manchester.
Have they thought about that?

[arista]

Health Secretary Steve Barclay
has met the Nurse Leader twice

But that was weeks back.

The Government will not go to this 19%

Steve has said his door is open
but the Nurse leader knows his views.


So those two 12 Hour Strikes are on track
for Thursday 15th Dec
and
Tuesday 20th Dec

[joeysteele]

Totally support them.

I still have family who work in nursing in the NHS and I've not really come across before how demoralised they are feeling now.

A few years ago 2 of my Cousins who were Doctors when Hunt was being ridiculous with the junior Doctors.
They left the UK to go abroad and work in health elsewhere.

The government whichever one was in really needs to come to appreciate and support the Nurses.
I wish them all the luck they need and success.
It's really bad and wrong they've felt pushed this far now.
Shocking.