[bots]

thousands of people are being killed in iran by the government, and the world huffs and puffs, but nothing changes, it's up to the people to rise up and sort the problem out.

Russia is hell bent on restoring it's old place in the world, no matter the cost to the russian people. It's only going to change if the people rise up and show putin it's unacceptable

The USA may not be quite as bad as the other regimes yet, but it's heading down a road and the only thing that will change that path is if the people force the change. The government has to be told it's unacceptable.

Given the strength and overwhelming advantage that the security services have in the USA, the people realistically don't stand a chance in hell of changing it, but they did vote this government in knowing the likely outcome so, ultimately, it's on their heads

The upshot is, there is just no point in stressing over events because they won't change unless there is an overwhelming desire of the people to change it and that's simply not the case in the USA

[BBXX]

Exactly.

The idea that being a nuisance towards authoritarian and unjust powerful organisations funded by and run under a morally bankrupt Government that has made life worse for women and minorities particularly is somehow deserving of death because you should not prod the bear... I mean we have a whole lot of history of non-conformity and public shaming towards abuse of state power gaining powerful results.

Civilian disobedience, public shaming and obstruction has been proven an effective form of non-violent protest.If people are suggesting that being shot is a fair or justified response, or are failing to condemn it - regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the objectives of ICE agents - then you should probably look at what side of history you would be on in decades past.

[Parmy]

Civilian disobedience, public shaming and obstruction has been proven an effective form of non-violent protest



Name 2 thing it's stoppped the past 40 yesrs

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Parmy

Civilian disobedience, public shaming and obstruction has been proven an effective form of non-violent protest

Name 2 thing it's stopped the past 40 years

Google it. These sorts of tactics have been a contributor to bringing an end, quelling or minimising many historical unjust regimes/rulings/laws.

We as civilians shouldn't have an issue with forms of non violent protests against state powers, irrespective of whether you agree with it or not because the government may not always be on your side, and when it isn't, you'll be thankful for that kind of resistance.

[Parmy]

But this was and has been violent.

And apart from frack8ng, it's stopped nothing in the US or UK...

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Parmy

But this was and has been violent.

And apart from frack8ng, it's stopped nothing in the US or UK...

Firstly, we're never going to agree on whether she was violent or not - you think she intentionally drove at him (assumption of intent, as Livia was referring to earlier). I think she did everything shown in the video to drive away in the gap that was there. (Breakdown of actual footage shown)

Secondly, I didn't narrow it down to just US and UK, I just specified historically.

My point still stands that civilian disobedience, public shaming and obstruction has been proven an effective form of non-violent protest.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Livia

Oh no. Mock. All your posts are MUCH worse than mine!

Seriously, I am not celebrating that she died. But I do accept that she put herself in harms way. I think Maru has explained stuff on this thread much better than I could, she knows the rules in the US.

Tbf yourself and Maru have made points that I can understand, even if I don't fully agree.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bots

thousands of people are being killed in iran by the government, and the world huffs and puffs, but nothing changes, it's up to the people to rise up and sort the problem out.

Russia is hell bent on restoring it's old place in the world, no matter the cost to the russian people. It's only going to change if the people rise up and show putin it's unacceptable

The USA may not be quite as bad as the other regimes yet, but it's heading down a road and the only thing that will change that path is if the people force the change. The government has to be told it's unacceptable.

Given the strength and overwhelming advantage that the security services have in the USA, the people realistically don't stand a chance in hell of changing it, but they did vote this government in knowing the likely outcome so, ultimately, it's on their heads

The upshot is, there is just no point in stressing over events because they won't change unless there is an overwhelming desire of the people to change it and that's simply not the case in the USA

Tbh there's a lot of countries that need the people to tell their Government what's what, and if they don't get what they deserve then the leader will lose their job.

That's for more Democratic countries anyway.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Parmy

Civilian disobedience, public shaming and obstruction has been proven an effective form of non-violent protest



Name 2 thing it's stoppped the past 40 yesrs

Being able to protest is essential to any civilized society.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Livia

Some people seem to know what was in everyone's head, whether they perceived they were in danger, whether they were actually in danger, whether they felt antagonised... all from watching a couple of film clips. It's quite the skill.

Yes that's the problem, we are all projecting **** we don't know, such as what caused either people to react the way they did. I try to focus on the law as I do understand that the most. As to ICE, if it is reasonably assumed they are operating like an invading military, the solution is to call the militia/national guard, which Tim Walz already hinted at doing. The Federal govt has been checked in such ways in our distant past and I think we are heading that way, if not now, at some point. The reason that perhaps hasn't happened yet is because politicians have largely overstated the threat of ICE when States do have more appropriate ways to respond to a threat.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Maru

Yes that's the problem, we are all projecting **** we don't know, such as what caused either people to react the way they did. I try to focus on the law as I do understand that the most. As to ICE, if it is reasonably assumed they are operating like an invading military, the solution is to call the militia/national guard, which Tim Walz already hinted at doing. The Federal govt has been checked in such ways in our distant past and I think we are heading that way, if not now, at some point. The reason that perhaps hasn't happened yet is because politicians have largely overstated the threat of ICE when States do have more appropriate ways to respond to a threat.

ICE has become the administration's personal army, and everyone knows it now

[Maru]

Originally Posted by bots

ICE has become the administration's personal army, and everyone knows it now

But when are they simply "invading"? Traditionally house calls and raids, outside of court order, could be limited to special operations or high risk targets. The Sheriffs could allow immigration to pull people who were detained in the jail system to limit public disruption. (Biden hindered this practice through the DOJ which also helped to cause border crossings to balloon). When some locations stopped working with ICE, that forces them obviously to pick people off the street and disrupt the public more.

We are a minority-majority city but we cooperate with law enforcement. We are not a riot friendly population, either. There is potentially more help available for people coming through this method if we catered more resources towards focusing on people being detained lawfully by local LEOs rather than sending someone out from the federal side. I wouldn't say nothing controversial ever happens here, but we don't have frequent controversial sightings of immigration to the extent of other cities. That shouldn't be the case with the seriousness of our human trafficking problem. Our Hispanic population, legal or not legal, is especially huge. The difference is that law enforcement locally isn't politicizing the issue and is minimizing disruption. The agencies all do their job quietly and don't involve the public the way these other cities seem to be keen to do.

Still, Trump is using his forces in a way to settle political scores. Especially to penalize its leaders in areas not keen to accept his "help". He is using the limits of the Constitution, limits that have largely remained unchallenged thanks to decades of Congress ceding its primary responsibilities. It has done much to enable the Executive Branch to the extent it has become emboldened in recent decades and not done much to challenge its authority while respective parties are in charge. Also, where are the calls for these much needed limitations by individual states if federal involvement is threatening the fabric of the Constitution. They have this political leverage by design.

By the way I don't think ICE isn't in need of review. It is. Much of the leeway given to these agencies need clawing back. Most of the Federal govt could use an audit and maybe even a rethink.

New ICE arrest data show the power of state and local governments to curtail mass deportations
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/20...-jails-update/

[bots]

we also know that huge amounts of cash have been directed toward ice agent recruitment, and that their training and suitability for the role is minimal.

[emseateng2014]

ever since its happened in usa there has been meltdowns from all sides in the usa political idelology universe

[Maru]

ICE Agent Suffered Internal Bleeding After Minneapolis Shooting
https://www.newsweek.com/jonathan-ro...e-good-1136008

[Glenn.]

Did he ****

[Liam-]

I feel pity for anyone that willingly believes this level of propaganda

[arista]

The Migrant shot
is doing well in the hospital.

Police Chief Brian O'Hara with the Mayor.

Live: Sky News /CNN


[Federal immigration agents shot a man
on Wednesday evening
during an enforcement action in Minneapolis,
according to multiple sources in networks
of legal aid and observer groups.

In a statement posted online, the city of Minneapolis
said it was aware “of a shooting involving federal law
enforcement in north Minneapolis” and was working
to confirm additional information.
What led to the shooting and the identities of
those involved have not yet been released.
a person runs through tear gas
Eight arrested in Minneapolis as Trump officials
issue threats to protesters
Read more

The incident, first reported locally by the
Minnesota Star Tribune, occurred as the city continued
to reel in the aftermath of the killing of Renee Nicole Good
by a US Immigration and
Customs Enforcement (ICE) agent last week.]


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-shovel-attack