[James]

Didn't watch this series but I can't really get on board with modern Trek. The old series were better. I watched some of Discovery, couple of seasons of Picard and couple of episodes of Strange New Worlds.

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by James

Didn't watch this series but I can't really get on board with modern Trek. The old series were better. I watched some of Discovery, couple of seasons of Picard and couple of episodes of Strange New Worlds.

I liked the older ones too. The new ones seem to have lost its touch, maybe the characters aren’t as good

[Crimson Dynamo]

Spin-offs like this are only ever cash grabs by unimaginative studios looking to exploit kids. Lazy like Marvel and the DEI angle is all about them and not providing entertainment. Shameful really.

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Spin-offs like this are only ever cash grabs by unimaginative studios looking to exploit kids. Lazy like Marvel and the DEI angle is all about them and not providing entertainment. Shameful really.

Marvel have a few good shows on Disney plus but it gets to a point where you cba watching them all

[Crimson Dynamo]

First look at Paapa Essiedu as Snape in the 'Harry Potter' series

[Maru]

Modern TV suffers from the same problem as modern books is that they are often overly self-indulgent, aren't allowed to stray from the narrow sensibilities of a specific person and generally speaking are focused more on fan-service than storytelling. So yes, while we have more access to niche, random or otherwise very strange obscure topics surrounding modern culture, we don't exactly get to experience the breadth of content actually surrounding those themes which can kill a good story...

Woke could be an entertaining theme if it were from the point of the view beyond the scope of personal sensibilities and if the story were allowed to explore deeper themes and expand on them. The problem is, by definition "woke" is an attack on culture itself so it often will not allow entertain deeper exploration that runs contradictory to its own fantasies and goals (living "my truth", etc).

Modern writing aims to appeal to very specific audiences and taste levels or authors themselves who only tend to want to focus on their own areas of interest, ie basically pandering. While in many cases it is woke that gets this treatment, traditionally it's involved many other themes as well. A lot of old media has this problem because it has the effect of being a product of its time and so not really appealing to much more than itself. It's why we don't see Christian media, etc, being very popular because the scope of storytelling for that is only going to fit within a specific palate, so the plot focus for that is going to be very specific. Though Christian/progressive/fantasy writers, etc, can inform a broader story by adding their personal touch. They have over the decades and we've said that it was great writing...

It's when authors are writing for themselves more than for storytelling that it's a problem. Fantasy world-building through storytelling became a big deal in my generation when being online became mainstream. LGBT themes were especially prolific, with every character of a game or movie back then seemingly getting that kind of treatment and personality-modification. That crowd was pretty significant within fantasy space (which coexisted with sci-fi).

Eventually things went commercial because these are the people that lived in their basement and hoarded media. Those were the ones who bought books and spinoffs and fan-service items. They are the ones in large numbers that show up to cons to get signatures and who actively ambassador brains. So it's assumed if they can reach those folk then they can eventually capture a fanbase. That would guarantee the level of success needed to make an IP profitable because those are the people buying statues, memorabilia, rewriting the core plot into spinoffs/fanfics, the ones actively investing in the brand.

They have no choice anyway because our habits of media consumption and even how we collect memorabilia has changed so drastically that industry-produced goods is a competitive space. There's now basement dwellers that own 3d printers so they can have their favorite character in 50 sexy poses and while yes they will still buy official media, there's many IPs the likes of Star Trek that are competing for their short attention span. It's not the person who streams a few episodes and then tells their friend "It's alright, I guess" who makes them successful. It's the person who takes the media very personally and makes it part of their identity... so imo, that's the aim for a lot of inclusion of woke/extra sexiness because so many younger folk, especially nerdy folk DO make it their entire identity. So corporations see this demographic and think "Oh we can profit from that!". It's been true to some degree, especially in games and books, but imo it has to still have good storytelling... TV is more difficult because the way we process moving picture is very different than books or comic books... but imo, that's why you see such a degradation of modern media is that it's trying to capture the type of audience that devours media like necessary for life fuel.

Disney successfully managed to do this with its mainstream movies and especially in making sure to keep a focus on magic and happy thoughts becoming actual real things, they've went into New Age deeply with their merchandising and tried to capture not only the children but also the older demographics that collect things like Tarot decks... because anime also has managed to capture that audience inadvertently and so that's a larger demographic that is building in the West (the US particularly) than most people realize and it's connected to that same circuitry of rabid fanpeoples...

Anyway, related (but books/writing):
S: https://youtu.be/x3NPxraALq0?si=DIBaQHU4UaNbzfMw&t=420

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Barry.

I liked the older ones too. The new ones seem to have lost its touch, maybe the characters aren’t as good

I think I've watched DS9 all the way through dozens of times. Voyager less so because some of the characters were more annoying to me for some reason, but I may try to re-watch it now that it's been so long with different eyes. Can't say the same for anything new I've watched over the years. It seemed to happen after everything went digital, since people aren't buying and storing media, why bother making it so that you'll watch it more than once... that's possibly affected the quality of newer media also.. after all it costs them now when you re-watch (over and over).

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Maru

I think I've watched DS9 all the way through dozens of times. Voyager less so because some of the characters were more annoying to me for some reason, but I may try to re-watch it now that it's been so long with different eyes. Can't say the same for anything new I've watched over the years. It seemed to happen after everything went digital, since people aren't buying and storing media, why bother making it so that you'll watch it more than once... that's possibly affected the quality of newer media also.. after all it costs them now when you re-watch (over and over).

Iirc DS9 was my favourite. I used to watch it when they were on sky one with my dad

[bots]

i also think its an age thing. I watched my first star trek over 50 years ago

Looking back, i think Enterprise was one of my favourite series

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Think it needs to be censored on here, especially when those constantly trolling with it, don’t even know what it means.

Operative word.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by bots

i also think its an age thing. I watched my first star trek over 50 years ago

Looking back, i think Enterprise was one of my favourite series

It doesn't have to be that way. I was into it when the shows during the 90s were airing including NG. It's one of those shows for me that could cover a lot of common ground on big topics without it feeling like 1) a total bore (the worse outcome) or 2) a complete farce

Most Star Treks have suffered from an "annoying character" problem. Especially if they were involved in some trope or or a tedious plotline that alienated people from the original appeal. It was also one of the shows most argued about online I seem to remember during even the dial up years. Maybe they just want to relive that... I've never remembered ST fanfolk as being particularly unified as a community, ironically enough and even shows like the Simpsons and other sitcoms at the time would pick up on the tendency for big followers of the show to just argue totally minor points out of no where about ST or other fictional sci-fi-related shows.

I remember a lot of people loved Voyager, but HATED DS9. Then you had people who loved DS9 but couldn't stand the captain in Voyager. So it always seemed like they just settled on having two shows to appease different wings of the base because it was so divided lol.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

First look at Paapa Essiedu as Snape in the 'Harry Potter' series

Looks great.

But then I’m not a racist.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Star Trek has always shifted tone depending on the audience it’s trying to reach, that’s not new. The real issue is whether the show was actually marketed and positioned properly. If people didn’t connect with it, that’s less about it being aimed at teens and more about how it was presented and whether it gave existing fans a reason to care.

And to be fair, broadening the audience isn’t bad strategy, it’s how franchises stay alive. The problem is when the execution doesn’t match the intent, not the idea itself.

I get what you're saying, but normally the successful rebrands tend to work because the fandom and the general public were both open to the idea.

I honestly don't believe that most people (including the teens) wanted a Show from the Star Trek franchise to exist in the market space that Starfleet Academy is going for.

Obviously the Political stuff will have played it's part to a point for both the Woke and Anti-Woke camps for and against the Show tbf. But nothing will really convince me that a teen Star Trek Show was a smart business decision, even if I ended up personally enjoying the Show myself I'd still say the exact same thing that I'm saying right now.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Spin-offs like this are only ever cash grabs by unimaginative studios looking to exploit kids. Lazy like Marvel and the DEI angle is all about them and not providing entertainment. Shameful really.

What you're calling DEI is the creators hiding behind an arguably good cause to disguise the fact that they (the writers) have no actual writing talent.

I mean tbf I really can't speak for Starfleet Academy on this, but it's just definitely my experience with a lot of the Shows that I've watched.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Maru

Modern TV suffers from the same problem as modern books is that they are often overly self-indulgent, aren't allowed to stray from the narrow sensibilities of a specific person and generally speaking are focused more on fan-service than storytelling. So yes, while we have more access to niche, random or otherwise very strange obscure topics surrounding modern culture, we don't exactly get to experience the breadth of content actually surrounding those themes which can kill a good story...

Woke could be an entertaining theme if it were from the point of the view beyond the scope of personal sensibilities and if the story were allowed to explore deeper themes and expand on them. The problem is, by definition "woke" is an attack on culture itself so it often will not allow entertain deeper exploration that runs contradictory to its own fantasies and goals (living "my truth", etc).

Modern writing aims to appeal to very specific audiences and taste levels or authors themselves who only tend to want to focus on their own areas of interest, ie basically pandering. While in many cases it is woke that gets this treatment, traditionally it's involved many other themes as well. A lot of old media has this problem because it has the effect of being a product of its time and so not really appealing to much more than itself. It's why we don't see Christian media, etc, being very popular because the scope of storytelling for that is only going to fit within a specific palate, so the plot focus for that is going to be very specific. Though Christian/progressive/fantasy writers, etc, can inform a broader story by adding their personal touch. They have over the decades and we've said that it was great writing...

It's when authors are writing for themselves more than for storytelling that it's a problem. Fantasy world-building through storytelling became a big deal in my generation when being online became mainstream. LGBT themes were especially prolific, with every character of a game or movie back then seemingly getting that kind of treatment and personality-modification. That crowd was pretty significant within fantasy space (which coexisted with sci-fi).

Eventually things went commercial because these are the people that lived in their basement and hoarded media. Those were the ones who bought books and spinoffs and fan-service items. They are the ones in large numbers that show up to cons to get signatures and who actively ambassador brains. So it's assumed if they can reach those folk then they can eventually capture a fanbase. That would guarantee the level of success needed to make an IP profitable because those are the people buying statues, memorabilia, rewriting the core plot into spinoffs/fanfics, the ones actively investing in the brand.

They have no choice anyway because our habits of media consumption and even how we collect memorabilia has changed so drastically that industry-produced goods is a competitive space. There's now basement dwellers that own 3d printers so they can have their favorite character in 50 sexy poses and while yes they will still buy official media, there's many IPs the likes of Star Trek that are competing for their short attention span. It's not the person who streams a few episodes and then tells their friend "It's alright, I guess" who makes them successful. It's the person who takes the media very personally and makes it part of their identity... so imo, that's the aim for a lot of inclusion of woke/extra sexiness because so many younger folk, especially nerdy folk DO make it their entire identity. So corporations see this demographic and think "Oh we can profit from that!". It's been true to some degree, especially in games and books, but imo it has to still have good storytelling... TV is more difficult because the way we process moving picture is very different than books or comic books... but imo, that's why you see such a degradation of modern media is that it's trying to capture the type of audience that devours media like necessary for life fuel.

Disney successfully managed to do this with its mainstream movies and especially in making sure to keep a focus on magic and happy thoughts becoming actual real things, they've went into New Age deeply with their merchandising and tried to capture not only the children but also the older demographics that collect things like Tarot decks... because anime also has managed to capture that audience inadvertently and so that's a larger demographic that is building in the West (the US particularly) than most people realize and it's connected to that same circuitry of rabid fanpeoples...

Anyway, related (but books/writing):
S: https://youtu.be/x3NPxraALq0?si=DIBaQHU4UaNbzfMw&t=420

No offence intended here, but where's the extra sexiness in the 2020's TV Shows?

I've done a rewatch of Falling Skies recently, which started it's First Season back in 2011 I think, and there were a lot of attractive looking women on that Show imo, much more than what I'm seeing from most 2020's Shows.

Unless we go into Korean TV, which admittedly has crazy high beauty standards imo.

Otherwise I do agree with most of your other points, especially about the Woke topic could be a lot more interesting as a storyline if TV writers could be bothered to write their own genuine opinions on the topic, rather than just regurgitating the exact same messages on repeat, some of the more extreme Woke opinions are not even morally sane views imo.

And yes there are morally insane Far Right opinions too, before anyone thinks that I'm picking a side.

[James]

My favourite was DS9. I liked Voyager and The Next Generation too. When I watched Enterprise at first I couldn't get into it, but I watched it all back after it finished and liked it.

I think one of the problems now is TV is all about serialised stories and the modern Trek writers can't do single episode stories well. That and the style of it, that was set by the JJ Abrams films - too glossy looking and action-led. He wanted to make a Star Wars film instead.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I will never forget the moment watching the original series back in the day when I realised that the guy beaming down with Kirk, Spock and Bones and wearing his distinctive red shirt was always going to die

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

First look at Paapa Essiedu as Snape in the 'Harry Potter' series

They rush to replace a white actor with a black actor. But they can't bear to make Hermoine the rather plain, slightly dumpy, frizzy-haired girl who only blossoms in the later books. Instead they take a very pretty child and frizz up her hair a bit.

[Glenn.]

Hermione wasn’t written to be unattractive or dumpy, she’s described as having bushy hair and big teeth early on, then growing into herself. Casting a conventionally pretty actor doesn’t erase that arc, it just means they didn’t lean heavily into making a child look awkward on screen. Films do that all the time.

Snapes defining traits are his personality, his history, and how he moves through the story. His appearance is secondary unless it directly affects the plot, which it doesn’t in any meaningful way.

Also, saying they rush to replace a white actor with a Black actor assumes there’s some agenda driving every decision. In reality, adaptations change things constantly, age, looks, accents, even personalities get tweaked. Some people only seem to notice when race is the thing that changes.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I think with Starfleet Academy it had an uphill battle by being a teen Show.

Most Star Trek fans are obviously in the older demographic, therefore it got rejected.

I actually think that the Woke debate was the secondary reason as to why Starfleet Academy struggled in the ratings.

I've never been a big trekkie,but from what you're saying sounds like the main issue with a lot of modern tv shows these days. Isn't it mostly just awful dialogue and terrible scripts/ plots ? .

Wasn't picard tv series very strange in how it was presented, I think it did ok in ratings. But I think they tried to be a bit more edgy with the language or something. And it was out of place ,and not what the original Star Trek series was ever about. I think even Patrick Stewart himself wasn't happy with it.

People also miss nostalgia I guess as well. I always groan and facepalm when I hear about old shows & movies getting either a reboot or new sequel .

Thank goodness the Back to the future 4 trailer on YouTube was just a fanmade video, because I just know they'd mess it up.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

No offence intended here, but where's the extra sexiness in the 2020's TV Shows?

I've done a rewatch of Falling Skies recently, which started it's First Season back in 2011 I think, and there were a lot of attractive looking women on that Show imo, much more than what I'm seeing from most 2020's Shows.

Unless we go into Korean TV, which admittedly has crazy high beauty standards imo.

Otherwise I do agree with most of your other points, especially about the Woke topic could be a lot more interesting as a storyline if TV writers could be bothered to write their own genuine opinions on the topic, rather than just regurgitating the exact same messages on repeat, some of the more extreme Woke opinions are not even morally sane views imo.

And yes there are morally insane Far Right opinions too, before anyone thinks that I'm picking a side.

Sexy in media for appeal now seems to be focused more on kinks or just outright freak behavior more than looks. So it's not just tied to visuals. Ex: Behaviors or proclivities focused on personality defects being used as part of a "clever" backstory.

Far right themes in plotlines has always been a thing obviously as the villain. There's actual superhero Nazis (evil) in The Boys (Amazon) that work for a corporation that engages in woke marketing. So they rip on Woke as well as a tool for PR exploitation. Does it add to the plot in imaginative ways? Not really. It borders a 1:1 (plug and play plotlines) reference to cynical modern politics with insulting references towards both ends for shock value. The gore and mostly dark sexual humor is off the charts, though. Most of the main characters are actual freaks and the story centers around the PR spin needed to keep it and any unchecked violence under wraps while also trying to take down a major corporation.

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Looks great.

But then I’m not a racist.

I don’t mind the recast but with what happens to Snape in the books it’s a bit risky for white men to be bullying a black man. I know it hasn’t to do with his skin colour but you know people will love that nonetheless

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

First look at Paapa Essiedu as Snape in the 'Harry Potter' series

Thought JK would never work again according to some

[bots]

i thought the HP franchise was grim first time round, the stories aren't interesting or compelling, so i can't see me rushing to watch any remakes

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thought JK would never work again according to some