[Ruth]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

Don't put words in my mouth. I have never once said that abortion should be illegal. The only point I have been arguing is that it is unethical.

I've already said that I disagree with your point about most kids not being adopted. There are more families that want kids but can't than there are unwanted babies.

Well I apologise if I misunderstood what you wrote. However, seeing as you insisted on referring to it as murder, I therefore assumed that you believed it should be illegal.

Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? if you look at the figures in relation to children eligible for adoption, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Lauren
I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice

I agree it should be the womans choice. That is basically what you are saying! If they agree, no problem- If they disagree, it's the womans choice, so either way, it's the womans choice!

Saying that though- couldn't help feeling sad about that case a few years back where the guy wanted kids and was no longer able to have them (cancer I think)-and I think his ex wife was pregnant with his child at the time and when she won the case had an abortion

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Ruth
Well I apologise if I misunderstood what you wrote. However, seeing as you insisted on referring to it as murder, I therefore assumed that you believed it should be illegal.

Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? if you look at the figures in relation to children eligible for adoption, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.

I was only referring to it as that because it is a fact, even if it's not politically correct to say so.

Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? If you look at the figures in relation to couples wanting to adopt, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.

In any case, that is irrelevant to whether murdering an unborn baby is ethical or not.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Matt10k

I agree it should be the womans choice. That is basically what you are saying! If they agree, no problem- If they disagree, it's the womans choice, so either way, it's the womans choice!

Saying that though- couldn't help feeling sad about that case a few years back where the guy wanted kids and was no longer able to have them (cancer I think)-and I think his ex wife was pregnant with his child at the time and when she won the case had an abortion

What about the baby's choice? You know, the one who they are trying to decide if they should murder or not? Perhaps his opinion should be taken into consideration in all of this.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

What about the baby's choice? You know, the one who they are trying to decide if they should murder or not? Perhaps his opinion should be taken into consideration in all of this.

I am 'iffy' about abortions but below a certain number of weeks, I am willing to accept them- before higher functions develop- ie pre 20 weeks. I think it should be lowered to 15 (because I think this is enough time) and just to make absolutely sure there is no overlap.

It's unfortunate that potential life is destroyed, but at this age (pre 20 weeks), that's what it is- 'potential life'. There are other things that could be considered potential life - it just depends where you draw the line.

I draw the line before higher functions can be detected on brain scans- with enough time to make sure there is no overlap.

I think the limit should be dropped as babies are increasingly able to survive with medical intervention outside the womans body ie- you wouldn't kill a new born baby on life support- if babies are able to survive without the mother at 25 weeks- they should not be killed.

I know it's a bit of a long winded viewpoint. That is just my take on it.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther

I was only referring to it as that because it is a fact, even if it's not politically correct to say so.

Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? If you look at the figures in relation to couples wanting to adopt, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.

In any case, that is irrelevant to whether murdering an unborn baby is ethical or not.

Oh I see. You are resorting to childish tactics and in fact quoting my own post back to me. Really, if you can't think of your own words, you might as well not waste your time saying anything.

Right - tell me one thing. If there are more people willing and able to adopt than children who are eligible to be adopted, then WHY are there still children eligible to be adopted? Why don't some children ever get adopted? After all, if people are desperate to adopt these children, there should be no children ever waiting to be adopted, other than when they are waiting for the paperwork to go through, no? Yet, unfortunately, there are thousands of children waiting to be adopted. Why is this? Where are the families queueing up to adopt them?

Secondly, and as I have already said - just because you think something does not make it fact. It's mighty arrogant of you to assume that it does. We are all discussing our opinions here, and most of us are adult enough to accept that our opinion is just that, and not a fact cast in stone. Maybe you are not mature enough to accept that? By law, abortion is not murder. Unless someone died and made you prime minister, you can call it what you want, but it doesn't make it a fact. GOT IT?

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Matt10k
I am 'iffy' about abortions but below a certain number of weeks, I am willing to accept them- before higher functions develop- ie pre 20 weeks. I think it should be lowered to 15 (because I think this is enough time) and just to make absolutely sure there is no overlap.

It's unfortunate that potential life is destroyed, but at this age (pre 20 weeks), that's what it is- 'potential life'. There are other things that could be considered potential life - it just depends where you draw the line.

I draw the line before higher functions can be detected on brain scans- with enough time to make sure there is no overlap.

I think the limit should be dropped as babies are increasingly able to survive with medical intervention outside the womans body ie- you wouldn't kill a new born baby on life support- if babies are able to survive without the mother at 25 weeks- they should not be killed.

I know it's a bit of a long winded viewpoint. That is just my take on it.

But it's not potential life. The person may be living inside of the mother but he is still living. He is conscious and has emotions, and they can detect these with technology.

When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it. In the past it may have been excused as mere ignorance, but today technology allows us to know these things. The person's deliberate and frantic attempts to escape the device, and the clear signs of panic, show that he does indeed want to live.

Here's video proof, just to show that I'm not making this up: http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
He is conscious and has emotions, and they can detect these with technology.

Actually, the higher functions of the brain do not develop before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are around this time.

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it.

The person's deliberate and frantic attempts to escape the device, and the clear signs of panic, show that he does indeed want to live.

That's insane and doesn't happen! I can't actually believe you'd think this!

Even if that did happen- how the hell would the baby know what was going on? How would it know the device was bad?! Sorry, but it's a load of tripe!

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
In the past it may have been excused as mere ignorance, but today technology allows us to know these things.

Yes, brain scans allow us to see when a baby is conscious and when it is not. This is why abortion limits are the way they are

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Here's video proof, just to show that I'm not making this up: http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm

I watched the first 3 parts of it- an 80’s american tv show, probably made by some right wing, pro-lifers. Poor quality and anything but scientific. It showed nothing and I got bored watching it. Sorry.

[Sunny_01]

I really think there are some huge issues around education going on here.

Some people have some very out of date ideas about what really happens during a termination. Maybe a little read of the following site would be useful for some:

http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelatio...rtionprocedure

This site will tell you about the methods available and at what stage people can have them.

I am very much pro-choice when it comes to abortion, I think where possible both parties involved should discuss the best thing to do but ultimatley it is the woman's choice as she has to live long term with any decision made.

[bigbr0ther]

Matt10k: Basically all you did was accuse my claims of being untrue (without any evidence to back it up) then say that you didn't bother looking at my evidence because it was "boring." You can stay in denial all you want if it helps you alleviate the guilt of supporting the murder of very much alive human beings, of course. You have the right to be ignorant. And you are using it.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Matt10k: Basically all you did was accuse my claims of being untrue (without any evidence to back it up) then say that you didn't bother looking at my evidence because it was "boring." You can stay in denial all you want if it helps you alleviate the guilt of supporting the murder of very much alive human beings, of course. You have the right to be ignorant. And you are using it.

You were ignorant. You didn't even know what abortion techniques are currently used! And you give me an 80's American show to back up your claims that a 12 week old foetus is miraculously able to detect when something is bad and will 'swim away' from it to get away!

I also see that you aren't disputing that babies are not conscious before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are the way they are.

And I don't feel guilty at all. I assume having an abortion is a difficult decision for any woman and there will certainly be guilt involved- but I never had an abortion or had to make that decision so why the hell should I feel guilty or be in denial for supporting it? Because you call it murder? Well that doesn't make me feel guilty! Before a certain age, a baby just isn't conscious, you can kid yourself that I feel guilty if you like, I’m telling you I don't.

Now like I said before- it depends where you draw the line. I draw the line at when a baby could be considered concious or have higher brain functions. This is post 25 weeks.

I also don't understand what you are pushing? If you want abortion to be illegal- I also believe this would be a bad idea.

Making it illegal, forces it underground- people won't stop having them, they'll get botched ops. Can you imagine?!

[Fom]

Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she wasn't doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.

People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Fom
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she was doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.

People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.

Strange- my sister was also 18 when she gave birth to my niece. I also think it's a shame but we can't control people's lives- some do not have the maturity to have children- it is a shame and I would never tell a girl to have an abortion no matter what, but it is a fact of life. Making it illegal would be a bigger mistake.

And at least before a certain age, it can be shown that a baby is not conscious and has not yet developed emotions or other higher functions.

As for potential life- you probably throw away a few million potential prime ministers every day



I went too far again didn't I?

[Stevos]

Originally posted by supernoodles!
i dont judge people i just think its wrong,always have always will.I can understand why some women who have been raped and as a rsult become pregnant choose abortion but even then i am still totally against it.I dont know if id raise the baby myself,id consider adoption

Agree, it's best not to judge. However, in most cases I am against abortion. My wife and I fostered a baby whose mum had been raped. However, this brave woman carried the child for 9 months then gave it up for adoption. RESPECT. It wasn't the childs fault.

But then again, I shouldn't comment as men have absolutely no rights as far as this topic is concerned.

[Fom]

Originally posted by Matt10k

Strange- my sister was also 18 when she gave birth to my niece. I also think it's a shame but we can't control people's lives- some do not have the maturity to have children- it is a shame and I would never tell a girl to have an abortion no matter what, but it is a fact of life. Making it illegal would be a bigger mistake.

And at least before a certain age, it can be shown that a baby is not conscious and has not yet developed emotions or other higher functions.

As for potential life- you probably throw away a few million potential prime ministers every day



I went too far again didn't I?

Good point haha, although they are only half prime ministers lol. Nothing without the womans side :P

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Matt10k
You were ignorant.

By your standards.

You didn't even know what abortion techniques are currently used!

Does it matter if I murder you with a gun vs a knife?

And you give me an 80's American show to back up your claims that a 12 week old foetus is miraculously able to detect when something is bad and will 'swim away' from it to get away!

Why are you bothering to bring up when/where the video was made? That is not relevant. The video proves that babies are conscious, even before they are born.

By the way, most movies are made in America, if you hadn't noticed.

I also see that you aren't disputing that babies are not conscious before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are the way they are.

This is appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Thus, I will dismiss it.

And I don't feel guilty at all. I assume having an abortion is a difficult decision for any woman and there will certainly be guilt involved- but I never had an abortion or had to make that decision so why the hell should I feel guilty or be in denial for supporting it? Because you call it murder? Well that doesn't make me feel guilty! Before a certain age, a baby just isn't conscious, you can kid yourself that I feel guilty if you like, I’m telling you I don't.

I doubt you have the capacity to feel guilt.

Now like I said before- it depends where you draw the line. I draw the line at when a baby could be considered concious or have higher brain functions. This is post 25 weeks.

What makes you believe that? I've provided a reference. You have not.

I also don't understand what you are pushing? If you want abortion to be illegal- I also believe this would be a bad idea.

Making it illegal, forces it underground- people won't stop having them, they'll get botched ops. Can you imagine?!

I never said that.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
By your standards.

Of course, by my standards and those in the medical profession that agree with me, and others on this forum.

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Why are you bothering to bring up when/where the video was made? That is not relevant. The video proves that babies are conscious, even before they are born.

By the way, most movies are made in America, if you hadn't noticed.

Of course it's relevant. It's out of date- I mentioned that it's american because they have a lot of extreme pro life groups out there that create propoganda videos like that with very little basis in truth. And 'by the way', it's not a movie- it's a documentary- we make plenty of those here too

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
This is appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Thus, I will dismiss it.

Eh? You trying to sound clever?! You make no points as to why you'd dismiss it other than one propoganda video from the 80's and this dodgy, pseudo intellectual spiel that means absolutely nothing to me!

Higher functions do not develop before 25 weeks- there is a plethora of evidence on this subject. This is why abortion limits are the way they are- because babies are not conscious before 25 weeks. How many times do I have to tell you this before it’ll sink in?

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
What makes you believe that? I've provided a reference. You have not.

You call that video a referance? Why not do your own research? There's plenty of it out there. Babies are not concious before 25 weeks. Why do you think they'd set abortion limits the way they have done? Just for the sake of it?!! Come on, use your brain

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I never said that.

So what exactly is your point? I've already said, if I was a woman I would never have an abortion. I said making it illegal would be a mistake because it forces it underground and all you can say is: "I have no capacity for guilt" and that this vast body of evidence stating babies are not concious is wrong because your 80's american propoganda video shows otherwise

[Matt10k]

bigbr0ther, you should research ‘thalamocortical connections‘, (which begin between 22 and 34 weeks). Before these are developed fully, a baby would not feel pain and would not be conscious.

Here's a source; (since you probably won't do you own research ), it's quite in depth though. The part on consciousness, thalamocortical connections, fetal pain and that this develops after 22 weeks is towards the bottom of page 215

On page 216, it also mentions the reflexes you were talking about and says they are most likely spasms caused by development of the spinal cord at around 15 weeks and that these do not indicate pain.


http://books.google.com/books?vid=IS...YvGI3sEV2bmKsA

(you'll have to copy and paste that whole link because it's too big to be a quick link )



Also, if you look back in this argument- you will see, that I would want abortion limits to be set at 15 weeks to gaurantee these connections are not present yet. As it stands, some late abortions could be getting a bit close for comfort.

[Sunny_01]

I suppose in all of the technical talk we forget about those women who are faced with the hardest decisions of their lives. Very few women/girls will make the decision lightly to end a pregnancy and nor should they be condemned for making a life changing decision for themselves.

I had my eldest daughter when I was 16 and I have to be very honest it was the hardest time of my life trying to decide what was the best thing for "me" I am and always will be happy with the decision I made, now at 37 I have a daughter approaching 21 and I am also a grandmother to an amazing little boy. Yes had a made a different decision I would not have had these wonders in my life BUT it was my decision to make, not the decision of other people. No one has the right to judge people for their own life changing decisions.

[geoking66]

Abortion should always be available, noöne can tell someone what they can or can't do with her body. I'm saying that all women should get abortions or we should exploit it (Cartman's "I've got aborted fetuses" comes to mind) but banning it only causes more danger.

[Ella]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it.

That is so not what happens, But the thought of that actually happening really upset me. Thats just not right at all.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Of course, by my standards and those in the medical profession that agree with me, and others on this forum.

This is appeal to respect, a logical fallacy. Good try though.

Of course it's relevant. It's out of date- I mentioned that it's american because they have a lot of extreme pro life groups out there that create propoganda videos like that with very little basis in truth. And 'by the way', it's not a movie- it's a documentary- we make plenty of those here too

Documentaries are movies. Documentary is a genre, like horror, comedy, or drama.

Eh? You trying to sound clever?! You make no points as to why you'd dismiss it other than one propoganda video from the 80's and this dodgy, pseudo intellectual spiel that means absolutely nothing to me!

Higher functions do not develop before 25 weeks- there is a plethora of evidence on this subject. This is why abortion limits are the way they are- because babies are not conscious before 25 weeks. How many times do I have to tell you this before it’ll sink in?

My point was that because it's a logical fallacy it is irrelevant to this debate. You say there is a "plethora of evidence" yet you've shown me none at all. Babies are certainly conscious before 25 weeks. And the "abortion limits" is appeal to authority, again, a logical fallacy.

You call that video a referance? Why not do your own research? There's plenty of it out there. Babies are not concious before 25 weeks. Why do you think they'd set abortion limits the way they have done? Just for the sake of it?!! Come on, use your brain

Again, appeal to authority. I've had this debate with pro-choice people who at least got me thinking and gave me a bit of a challenge. You, however, are just employing one logical fallacy after another.

So what exactly is your point? I've already said, if I was a woman I would never have an abortion. I said making it illegal would be a mistake because it forces it underground and all you can say is: "I have no capacity for guilt" and that this vast body of evidence stating babies are not concious is wrong because your 80's american propoganda video shows otherwise

What are you on about? I never said it should be illegal. You're arguing against a point I never even made.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I suppose in all of the technical talk we forget about those women who are faced with the hardest decisions of their lives. Very few women/girls will make the decision lightly to end a pregnancy and nor should they be condemned for making a life changing decision for themselves.

This is very true. I have a lot of respect for teenage women who find themselves with a surprise pregnancy. They need a lot of courage, support, and understanding.

I had my eldest daughter when I was 16 and I have to be very honest it was the hardest time of my life trying to decide what was the best thing for "me" I am and always will be happy with the decision I made, now at 37 I have a daughter approaching 21 and I am also a grandmother to an amazing little boy. Yes had a made a different decision I would not have had these wonders in my life BUT it was my decision to make, not the decision of other people. No one has the right to judge people for their own life changing decisions.

I am very happy for you! I personally feel that you made the right choice.

[Matt10k]

Bigbrother, I did give you evidence. Look up "thalamocortical connections"

(I even went to the trouble of getting you an indepth link which you seem to have ignored)

And just continually spouting that the evidence is 'logical fallacy' but not stating why means nothing to me, especially since, it seems you didn't even read it.

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
This is very true. I have a lot of respect for teenage women who find themselves with a surprise pregnancy. They need a lot of courage, support, and understanding.

You should also respect whatever desicion they choose to make. Not like earlier in the thread where you were basically calling all women who choose to have abortions 'muderers', even those that choose to have them after they were raped. This to me is not respect, it just shows a lack of understanding for what these women have to go through...

[pinkmichk]

Originally posted by Fom
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she wasn't doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.

People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.

i totally agree with you i dont agree with abortion at all when i fell pregnant with my daughter i was 20 only 3 months into a relationship and i fell while taking the pill i wasnt exactly in a decent job and at the time prior to getting pregnant i was prepared to be a mum but i knew that i couldnt get rid of my baby (even my doctor said there is always a abortion when i explained my situation ) but here i am now with a almost 3 and half yr old yes life has changed but i couldnt imagine my life without her and feel regret if i had got rid

i see the point of some saying about what if a girl is raped well there is always adoption and the illness thing but medical practises are so advanced (and keep becoming further advanced) can someone really live with the what if my child i got rid of was the one to defy the odds get that new drug etc