Home Menu

Site Navigation


Notices

Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16-04-2008, 07:01 PM #1
Conor's Avatar
Conor Conor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,427


Conor Conor is offline
Senior Member
Conor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,427


Default Foolish experiment may lead to the end of the world or even universe!

Quote:
More fighting in Iraq. Somalia in chaos. People in this country can’t afford their mortgages and in some places now they can’t even afford rice.

None of this nor the rest of the grimness on the front page today will matter a bit, though, if two men pursuing a lawsuit in federal court in Hawaii turn out to be right. They think a giant particle accelerator that will begin smashing protons together outside Geneva this summer might produce a black hole or something else that will spell the end of the Earth — and maybe the universe. Scientists say that is very unlikely — though they have done some checking just to make sure.

The world’s physicists have spent 14 years and $8 billion building the Large Hadron Collider, in which the colliding protons will recreate energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Researchers will sift the debris from these primordial recreations for clues to the nature of mass and new forces and symmetries of nature.

But Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho contend that scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, have played down the chances that the collider could produce, among other horrors, a tiny black hole, which, they say, could eat the Earth. Or it could spit out something called a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of something called “strange matter.” Their suit also says CERN has failed to provide an environmental impact statement as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.

Although it sounds bizarre, the case touches on a serious issue that has bothered scholars and scientists in recent years — namely how to estimate the risk of new groundbreaking experiments and who gets to decide whether or not to go ahead.

The lawsuit, filed March 21 in Federal District Court, in Honolulu, seeks a temporary restraining order prohibiting CERN from proceeding with the accelerator until it has produced a safety report and an environmental assessment. It names the federal Department of Energy, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as defendants.

According to a spokesman for the Justice Department, which is representing the Department of Energy, a scheduling meeting has been set for June 16.

Why should CERN, an organization of European nations based in Switzerland, even show up in a Hawaiian courtroom?

In an interview, Mr. Wagner said, “I don’t know if they’re going to show up.” CERN would have to voluntarily submit to the court’s jurisdiction, he said, adding that he and Mr. Sancho could have sued in France or Switzerland, but to save expenses they had added CERN to the docket here. He claimed that a restraining order on Fermilab and the Energy Department, which helps to supply and maintain the accelerator’s massive superconducting magnets, would shut down the project anyway.

James Gillies, head of communications at CERN, said the laboratory as of yet had no comment on the suit. “It’s hard to see how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe,” Mr. Gillies said.

“There is nothing new to suggest that the L.H.C. is unsafe,” he said, adding that its safety had been confirmed by two reports, with a third on the way, and would be the subject of a discussion during an open house at the lab on April 6.

“Scientifically, we’re not hiding away,” he said.

But Mr. Wagner is not mollified. “They’ve got a lot of propaganda saying it’s safe,” he said in an interview, “but basically it’s propaganda.”

In an e-mail message, Mr. Wagner called the CERN safety review “fundamentally flawed” and said it had been initiated too late. The review process violates the European Commission’s standards for adhering to the “Precautionary Principle,” he wrote, “and has not been done by ‘arms length’ scientists.”

Physicists in and out of CERN say a variety of studies, including an official CERN report in 2003, have concluded there is no problem. But just to be sure, last year the anonymous Safety Assessment Group was set up to do the review again.

“The possibility that a black hole eats up the Earth is too serious a threat to leave it as a matter of argument among crackpots,” said Michelangelo Mangano, a CERN theorist who said he was part of the group. The others prefer to remain anonymous, Mr. Mangano said, for various reasons. Their report was due in January.

This is not the first time around for Mr. Wagner. He filed similar suits in 1999 and 2000 to prevent the Brookhaven National Laboratory from operating the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider. That suit was dismissed in 2001. The collider, which smashes together gold ions in the hopes of creating what is called a “quark-gluon plasma,” has been operating without incident since 2000.

Mr. Wagner, who lives on the Big Island of Hawaii, studied physics and did cosmic ray research at the University of California, Berkeley, and received a doctorate in law from what is now known as the University of Northern California in Sacramento. He subsequently worked as a radiation safety officer for the Veterans Administration.

Mr. Sancho, who describes himself as an author and researcher on time theory, lives in Spain, probably in Barcelona, Mr. Wagner said.

Doomsday fears have a long, if not distinguished, pedigree in the history of physics. At Los Alamos before the first nuclear bomb was tested, Emil Konopinski was given the job of calculating whether or not the explosion would set the atmosphere on fire.

The Large Hadron Collider is designed to fire up protons to energies of seven trillion electron volts before banging them together. Nothing, indeed, will happen in the CERN collider that does not happen 100,000 times a day from cosmic rays in the atmosphere, said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton.

What is different, physicists admit, is that the fragments from cosmic rays will go shooting harmlessly through the Earth at nearly the speed of light, but anything created when the beams meet head-on in the collider will be born at rest relative to the laboratory and so will stick around and thus could create havoc.

The new worries are about black holes, which, according to some variants of string theory, could appear at the collider. That possibility, though a long shot, has been widely ballyhooed in many papers and popular articles in the last few years, but would they be dangerous?

According to a paper by the cosmologist Stephen Hawking in 1974, they would rapidly evaporate in a **** of radiation and elementary particles, and thus pose no threat. No one, though, has seen a black hole evaporate.

As a result, Mr. Wagner and Mr. Sancho contend in their complaint, black holes could really be stable, and a micro black hole created by the collider could grow, eventually swallowing the Earth.

But William Unruh, of the University of British Columbia, whose paper exploring the limits of Dr. Hawking’s radiation process was referenced on Mr. Wagner’s Web site, said they had missed his point. “Maybe physics really is so weird as to not have black holes evaporate,” he said. “But it would really, really have to be weird.”

Lisa Randall, a Harvard physicist whose work helped fuel the speculation about black holes at the collider, pointed out in a paper last year that black holes would probably not be produced at the collider after all, although other effects of so-called quantum gravity might appear.

As part of the safety assessment report, Dr. Mangano and Steve Giddings of the University of California, Santa Barbara, have been working intensely for the last few months on a paper exploring all the possibilities of these fearsome black holes. They think there are no problems but are reluctant to talk about their findings until they have been peer reviewed, Dr. Mangano said.

Dr. Arkani-Hamed said concerning worries about the death of the Earth or universe, “Neither has any merit.” He pointed out that because of the dice-throwing nature of quantum physics, there was some probability of almost anything happening. There is some minuscule probability, he said, “the Large Hadron Collider might make dragons that might eat us up.”
Sorce...
Conor is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 16-04-2008, 07:31 PM #2
Arneldo's Avatar
Arneldo Arneldo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 23,508


Arneldo Arneldo is offline
Senior Member
Arneldo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 23,508


Default

Hand up who couldny be arsed to read that article but felt like coming in to post "HA!"?





Just me then.
Arneldo is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 16-04-2008, 07:46 PM #3
Tom Tom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,738

Favourites (more):
BB12: Anton
CBB7: Stephanie


Tom Tom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,738

Favourites (more):
BB12: Anton
CBB7: Stephanie


Default

Well I read the first paragraph and got bored. If it can mean the end of the world they won't be allowed to do it. Simple as really.
Tom is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 17-04-2008, 05:24 AM #4
Sticks's Avatar
Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
Sticks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Default

We have been through all this on this forum in detail.

We have more energetic collisions hitting the moon from cosmic radiation and not seen anything like that

Also if a miniblackhole were created it would immediately evaporate due to Hawkings Radiation
Sticks is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 17-04-2008, 06:57 AM #5
Sticks's Avatar
Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
Sticks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Default

More on this from an expert who also believes this law suit is a load of hooey
Sticks is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 17-04-2008, 08:42 AM #6
Harry!'s Avatar
Harry! Harry! is offline
Frozen
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 37,603

Favourites (more):
X Factor 2013: Sam Callahan
CBB 11: Rylan Clark


Harry! Harry! is offline
Frozen
Harry!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 37,603

Favourites (more):
X Factor 2013: Sam Callahan
CBB 11: Rylan Clark


Default

Can I have the artical in english please.
Harry! is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 19-05-2008, 06:54 AM #7
Sticks's Avatar
Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
Sticks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Posted
Can I have the artical in english please.
The article by Phil Plait of Bad Astronomy should be in accessible English. The problem is that this does involve technical matters and parts of Physics that the average person does not normally deal with, which allows scaremongers to flourish.
Sticks is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 23-05-2008, 04:12 PM #8
bananarama's Avatar
bananarama bananarama is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 7,438


bananarama bananarama is offline
Senior Member
bananarama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 7,438


Default

particle accelerator (Code name for duster) used plenty of them and no black holes thus far.......

Don't worry it might happen and then everyone will be a peace....
bananarama is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 07:54 AM #9
Sticks's Avatar
Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Sticks Sticks is offline
Cyber Warrior
Sticks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 10,139


Default

It looks like some are not convinced by the scientific arguments about safety


Quote:
The world's biggest and most expensive scientific experiment has been hit by a last minute legal challenge, amid claims that the research could bring about the end of the world.

Critics of the Large Hadron Collider - a £4.4 billion machine due to be switched on in ten days time - have lodged a lawsuit at the European Court for Human Rights against the 20 countries, including the UK, that fund the project.

The device is designed to replicate conditions that existed just a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, and its creators hope it will unlock the secrets of how the universe began.

However, opponents fear the machine, which will smash pieces of atoms together at high speed and generate temperatures of more than a trillion degrees centigrade, may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart.

Scientists involved in the project have dismissed the fears as "absurd" and insist that extensive safety assessments on the 17 mile long particle accelerator have demonstrated that it is safe.

The legal battle comes as the European Nuclear Research Centre (CERN), in Geneva, prepares to send the first beam of particles around the machine at the official switch on, on September 10, although it will be several weeks before the first particles are collided together.

Opponents of the project had hoped to obtain an injunction from the European Court of Human Rights that would block the collider from being turned on at all, but the court rejected the application on Friday morning. However, the court will rule on allegations that the experiment violates the right to life under the European Convention of Human Rights.

Professor Otto Rössler, a German chemist at the Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen who is one of the most vocal opponents of the LHC and was one of the scientists who submitted the complaint to the court, said: "CERN itself has admitted that mini black holes could be created when the particles collide, but they don't consider this a risk.

"My own calculations have shown that it is quite plausible that these little black holes survive and will grow exponentially and eat the planet from the inside. I have been calling for CERN to hold a safety conference to prove my conclusions wrong but they have not been willing.

"We submitted this application to the European Court of Human Rights as we do not believe the scientists at CERN are taking all the precautions they should be in order to protect human life."

Professor Rössler claims that, in the worst case scenario, the earth could be sucked inside out within four years of a mini black hole forming.

The case he and his colleagues have put before the European Court of Human Rights argues that the Large Hadron Collider violates the right to life and right to private family life under the European Convention of Human Rights

It sets out a series of arguments that suggest the collider could produce mini black holes that would permanently come into existence and grow uncontrollably.

But a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear. It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.

It stated that nature routinely produces higher energy collisions on the earth than will be possible in the collider, when cosmic rays hit the planet

But the CERN facility is already facing a second lawsuit filed by environmentalists in Hawaii who are seeking a court order that would force the US government to intervene and delay the start up of the collider. That case is due to be heard on Tuesday.

Large particle colliders have been used by scientists to smash atoms and pieces of atoms together for more than thirty years without causing any noticeable harm to the planet.

This latest machine, however, has attracted such attention because it is the largest and most powerful ever constructed. Built 300ft beneath the French Swiss border, it will fire atomic particles around its 17 mile circumference, 11,245 times every second before smashing them headlong into each other.

The result will, for a split second, replicate the conditions that existed in the moments immediately after the birth of the universe, known as the Big Bang. In a space a billion times smaller than a speck of dust, the collisions will create temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the sun.

Among the debris thrown off by these collisions, scientists hope they will find the elusive Higgs-Boson, which is thought to be responsible for giving every other particle its mass, or weight.

But scientists admit it could be years before they start producing any meaningful results due to the challenges involved in detecting such tiny and fleeting particles.

James Gillies, spokesman for CERN, insisted that despite the huge amounts of energy the Large Hadron Collider will produce, it posed no risk to the safety of the planet.

He said: "The case before the European Court of Human Rights contains the same arguments that we have seen before and we have answered these in extensive safety reports.

The Large Hadron Collider will not be producing anything that does not already happen routinely in nature due to cosmic rays. If they were dangerous we would know about it already.

"We are now concentrating on firing the first beams around the collider and then on fine tuning it until we can get collisions, when the science will start."

A spokesman for the European Court of Human Rights confirmed the lawsuit had been lodged and the petition to obtain an emergency injunction against CERN was rejected. She said: "There will therefore be no bar to CERN carrying out these experiments but the applicants can continue with this case here at the ECHR."
I do wonder if we should have this out in an open court, just to show the general public the science involved and why the doom mongers are wrong, otherwise the scientists might come across as arrogant "know it all"s
Sticks is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark/share this topic

Tags
end, experiment, foolish, lead, universe, world


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
 

About Us ThisisBigBrother.com

"Big Brother and UK Television Forum. Est. 2001"

 

© 2023
no new posts