[InOne]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But the point is the same could be said for any religion if you follow it completely. Every religion has the fundamentalist groups which aren't representative as the religion as a whole. In Islam you have the Islam4UK, In Christianity you have sects like the Westboro Baptist Church and Opus Dei whih preach prejudice, self harm and treating women as lesser humans respectively. Yet mainstream Christianity isn't seen like that, my point is that it's the same for Islam, you have the extreme sects and then you have the more mainstream majority that obviously aren't fundamentalists.

I do get what you're trying to say but I think that point could be used in an argument against any religion really.

Only difference is Islam promotes violence and hate lol

[lily.]

I think extremists are utter *****s.

I feel sorry muslims who aren't extremist, because they can't really win in this type of situation. If they speak out against the extremist, they may be persecuted for not conforming... if they support the extremist... the non-muslims hate them..

It's a lose/lose situation for them..

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by InOne

Only difference is Islam promotes violence and hate lol

So does Christianity if you take every word as fact (like with the Qu'ran). Look back in History, Christianity's past is as blood soaked as Islam's yet it isn't treated with such trepidation.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

Only difference is Islam promotes violence and hate lol

Only if you look at it a certain way. It's all about personal interpretation. I have read the Qur'an and it's full of some beautiful pieces.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

So does Christianity if you take every word as fact (like with the Qu'ran). Look back in History, Christianity's past is as blood soaked as Islam's yet it isn't treated with such trepidation.

Yes but the quran has hate for a direct group of people, the Christian and Jews, no other religion has that.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

Only if you look at it a certain way. It's all about personal interpretation. I have read the Qur'an and it's full of some beautiful pieces.

Indeed, but the bad outweighs the good. It is a militant religion.

[30stone]

Lead them out and.. and... BOOM.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

Yes but the quran has hate for a direct group of people, the Christian and Jews, no other religion has that.

Bollocks, it still depends how you interpret it. For instance, a version of the Christian golden rule exists in Islam too : Don't do unto others what you wouldn't have done to you. But like certain Christian groups, certain Islamist groups ignore this. These books are huge - huge - and given their bullshit, fallacy ridden, contradictory nature, numerous interpretations exist. You can't just say defiantly that Islam is a religion of hate, just like you can't say defiantly Christianity is a religion of love and compassion.

“None of you believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”
- The Qur'an.

[spitfire]

Do you know what have you done, with your twisted dreams?

How you ignore people’s heartache, ignored their screams

Did you feel any remorse as the planes hit the towers?

Or did you get endless pleasure, during America’s darkest hours

You sent the innocents to their death without even a thought

You’re crazy Koran; your book, it’s what you thought you were taught

Did you join in the planning, the slaughter on seven/seven

Did you hold street parties during Ramadan to celebrate nine/eleven?

You took advantage of tolerance, you under estimated the resolve of the west

You learnt the infidel the word HATE, and just how to detest

You created bitterness and contempt disturbed the sleeping beast

Gave us a new vocabulary on which we the infidel learnt to feast

Extremist, Traitor, Allah Akbar, words seldom used in our land

But then you taunted our brave soldiers, and now you have forced our hand

The time has come to draw the sword, now our eyes are opened wide

We cannot, will not lose this war, you see we have England on our side

We will try to protest peacefully, we do not want disorder for our street

The infidel is no longer friendly; Extremism and terrorism will be beat

Oh don’t doubt our hatred for you; we won’t rest till you left these shores

A message for labour and Gordon Brown, we aren’t taking this any more

Between you, you destroyed our country, our people afraid to have their say

As soon as they have an opinion, well the race card comes out to play

Our freedom of speech lies in the gutter; our people have their heads in the sand

A message for UAF, labour and Choudray, we are going to take back England

To EDL when things are tough, please keep this message in mind

You are fighting for our England back, for every man, woman and child.

[30stone]

Spitfire come along and boom!

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

Bollocks, it still depends how you interpret it. For instance, a version of the Christian golden rule exists in Islam too : Don't do unto others what you wouldn't have done to you. But like certain Christian groups, certain Islamist groups ignore this. These books are huge - huge - and given their bullshit, fallacy ridden, contradictory nature, numerous interpretations exist. You can't just say defiantly that Islam is a religion of hate, just like you can't say defiantly Christianity is a religion of love and compassion.

Indeed, still does not take away the fact it preaches hate for a two groups of people who still exist today. Every Muslim I have ever talked to has a different interpretation of the quran, yet they say it is flawless and without contradiction.

[lily.]

Religion is the root of all evil. Fact.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

Indeed, still does not take away the fact it preaches hate for a two groups of people who still exist today. Every Muslim I have ever talked to has a different interpretation of the quran, yet they say it is flawless and without contradiction.

Exactly, and I provided you with one. So it dosn't definitively teach hate towards two groups of people because on the other hand the golden rule exists. The whole thing is an endless series of contradictions.

If I were to argue using your logic, Christianity, using it's foundational texts, appears to teach hatred towards homosexuals, *****s, the rich, pagans ... need I go on?

Really neither of us can win here. But the religionists almost always loose .

That's sacred texts for you. If you wan't a good one, check out the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's free from any political manifesto and propagandised hate .

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

Exactly, and I provided you with one. So it dosn't definitively teach hate towards two groups of people because on the other hand the golden rule exists. The whole thing is an endless series of contradictions.

If I were to argue using your logic, Christianity, using it's foundational texts, appears to teach hatred towards homosexuals, *****s, the rich, pagans ... need I go on?

This is not about Christianity though, this is about Islam...

Why when discussing one religion does another need to be brought into it, i'm not excatly Christian or defending Christianity am I?

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

This is not about Christianity though, this is about Islam...

Why when discussing one religion does another need to be brought into it, i'm not excatly Christian or defending Christianity am I?

My point still stands. You say Islam teaches hate, I show you a quote from the Qur'an which appears to suggest we should treat everybody equal. The two cancel each other out. A contradiction. Therefore you cant say definitively that all Muslims are taught and carry out active hatred towards Christians etc.

Which was my initial point. It's all about interpretation. Really, the whole thing is just bullshit.

Originally Posted by lili

Religion is the root of all evil. Fact.

Control is pretty much the escence of all human evil I think. Apart from those men who just want to watch the world burn. Religion being of course a by-product of control masquerading as a tool to help the less fortunate.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

My point still stands. You say Islam teaches hate, I show you a quote from the Qur'an which appears to suggest we should treat everybody equal. The two cancel each other out. A contradiction. Therefore you cant say definitively that all Muslims are taught and carry out active hatred towards Christians etc.

Which was my initial point. It's all about interpretation. Really, the whole thing is just bullshit.

It teaches hate to none Muslims, it teaches hate to Christians and Jew. As I said Islam is a militant religion, if Muslims followed the golden rule, do you think there would be so many wars in Muslim countries? Do you think Shia and Sunnis would have bitter hate for eachother? It is pretty well know in the Middle East Islam does not go by the golden rule.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

It teaches hate to none Muslims, it teaches hate to Christians and Jew. As I said Islam is a militant religion, if Muslims followed the golden rule, do you think there would be so many wars in Muslim countries? Do you think Shia and Sunnis would have bitter hate for eachother? It is pretty well know in the Middle East Islam does not go by the golden rule.

And that is exactly where interpretation comes into it. People ignore certain bits to further there own agendas. But the golden rule still exists in the Qur'an, as well as your 'hate to none Muslims'.

Technicaly using your logic I could sit here and proclaim officialy Islam as being a religion that teaches love to your neighbour. But I can't because it would be a generalisaton of a huge group of people who all have different interpretations.

Ergo, religion is bullshit. It dosn't really teach any one definitive thing. It's a pick and mix sandbox for nutters everywhere.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

And that is exactly where interpretation comes into it. People ignore certain bits to further there own agendas. But the golden rule still exists in the Qur'an, as well as your 'hate to none Muslims'.

I did not say it did not exist, they just choose not to follow it. It's a branch of Judaism and Christianity of course it's going to be there.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by InOne

I did not say it did not exist, they just choose not to follow it. It's a branch of Judaism and Christianity of course it's going to be there.

Right, just like plenty of Muslims choose not to follow the 'hate the other religions' bit.

Simple.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Stu

Right, just like plenty of Muslims choose not to follow the 'hate the other religions' bit.

Simple.

Indeed, still manage to get themselves in quite alot of bother though aye

[Stu]

Nah, plenty of peaceful Muslims exist.

[InOne]

Didn't deny they did.

[JOSHUAH!]

This Mr.Choudry who is running the march, and runs ISLAM4UK, has said this march is to 'remember the innocent men, women and children who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan'

In fairness, I agree - it's TERRIBLE that these innocent civilians die - but the United Nations have statistics which show that most Muslim civilians in Afghanistan have died from other Muslims, usually in suicide bombs, and the like. Mr.Choudry continues to blame our soldiers for their deaths and its simply not true - the majority of our soldiers go over there to protect people, and to save them. Most moderate Muslims in the country even like the soldiers.

So really, a march should go ahead. But NOT in Wooten Basset - it is TOTALLY wrong, and shows no compassion. As a religious man Mr.Choudry should remember that soldiers, civilians, whatever - they are LIVES. People dying is a horrible thing, and these soldiers have been ordered to go to Afghanistan by our government, it is not their fault. Mr.Choudry should change the location, because to be honest, the whole idea for the march was to 'remember the innocent civilian lives lost' WELL, I'm sorry, but the media, and not many of the public actually know that - we are just outraged you've chosen Wooten Basset. So really, his idea hasn't got through, or made us think about the civilians at all.

On Sky News they interviewed a Muslim lady from the 'Muslim Council of Britain' She said he was a 'mad man' - I think that speaks volumes. A Muslim calling Mr.Choudry a mad man, and that he is. I'm glad she spoke out, because at least we now know that not all Muslims think and behave like him.

[arista]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-benefits.html


What is worse is the UK Public Fund his Extreme gigs.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by JOSHUAH!

This Mr.Choudry who is running the march, and runs ISLAM4UK, has said this march is to 'remember the innocent men, women and children who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan'

In fairness, I agree - it's TERRIBLE that these innocent civilians die - but the United Nations have statistics which show that most Muslim civilians in Afghanistan have died from other Muslims, usually in suicide bombs, and the like. Mr.Choudry continues to blame our soldiers for their deaths and its simply not true - the majority of our soldiers go over there to protect people, and to save them. Most moderate Muslims in the country even like the soldiers.

So really, a march should go ahead. But NOT in Wooten Basset - it is TOTALLY wrong, and shows no compassion. As a religious man Mr.Choudry should remember that soldiers, civilians, whatever - they are LIVES. People dying is a horrible thing, and these soldiers have been ordered to go to Afghanistan by our government, it is not their fault. Mr.Choudry should change the location, because to be honest, the whole idea for the march was to 'remember the innocent civilian lives lost' WELL, I'm sorry, but the media, and not many of the public actually know that - we are just outraged you've chosen Wooten Basset. So really, his idea hasn't got through, or made us think about the civilians at all.

On Sky News they interviewed a Muslim lady from the 'Muslim Council of Britain' She said he was a 'mad man' - I think that speaks volumes. A Muslim calling Mr.Choudry a mad man, and that he is. I'm glad she spoke out, because at least we now know that not all Muslims think and behave like him.

Well said!