[Incensed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

old enough to realise a flap showing when I see one.

But let's be honest, you really let yourself down if you if the only way you can express yourself is by using comments like this. Actually, you're more to be pitied than scorned.

And yes, I know, I'm going on your ignore list.

[stonedape]

And if you guys want to see a real cult of business that's sole intent is hijacking doctrine and taking your money, look up Scientology. I can guarantee you won't find a practicing Scientologist in a Big Brother house on this planet. Or on Youtube outside of heavily edited advertisements. Dave's group are just "alternative" Christians that don't fit in with the "mainstream". They make money off people, the formal church makes more money, they say crazy things, the formal church says crazy things. Not seeing a big difference besides aesthetics and familiarity.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Incensed

But let's be honest, you really let yourself down if you if the only way you can express yourself is by using comments like this. Actually, you're more to be pitied than scorned.

And yes, I know, I'm going on your ignore list.

Once i find something worthy of my expression you'll be first to know.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by stoney

was it Marx that said that religion is the opium of the masses?

Yes it was. Although I'm not sure whether it was Groucho or Harpo :-)

[Incensed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Once i find something worthy of my expression you'll be first to know.

I look forward to it.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Incensed

I look forward to it.

I might not let you look.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by calyman

Any irrational or faith based beliefs qualify as being superstitious purely on the basis that there is no real scientific basis behind them. Therefore any practioner of any such beliefs are indeed charlatans, however well meaning they may try to convince the rest of us they are.

Of course you're going to look at it as a superstition if that's what you think. The natural sciences (to which I believe you are alluding) can't answer all of man's question. You forget philosophy is a science and in no way incompatible with the natural sciences.

If proof is required, then it's the charlatan who must prove to all, that they deserve our credulity and acceptance of their claims. In the absence of such proof, they are just flim flam artists, promising nothing but Pie In The Sky When We Die.

Dave is a charlatan because he works for and enables an organisation that claims it can 'rehabilitate' homosexuals to lead intimate relationships with the opposite sex and that it can literally use supernatural powers to cure cancer. That is superstitious, irrational and anti-scientific and, more to the point, is a rotten, cynical lie.

[Incensed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I might not let you look.

Promises, promises.

[housemate]

Originally Posted by Livia

Dave's beliefs aren't any less valid because he believes something different to you. He believes Jesus died on the cross for the salvation of mankind and that God loves everyone. Sounds pretty Christian to me.

I think all religions are superstition that have been used over the centuries to control the masses with the promise of an afterlife. Unfounded, unproven, made up of stories written thousands years ago and almost totally debunked by science. Personal point of view, obviously.

And many agree with you, to a degree and I am an (..allbeit unbaptised) Christian.. I agree with you.
Dave seems to have invented his own branch of Faith which has introduced lots of supersticious beings such as fairies, werewolves and the like into its teaching. This does offend me because he incorporates it all under the same banner of 'Christian Faith' and 'Gods Glory'... etc.. etc..
I can understand that you might argue that in your view it is the same thing ... in my view it is most certainly not. I'd go further and say it brings my beliefs into disrepute... it also thoroughly undermines the good, faith can bring to those who need it.

[calyman]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Of course you're going to look at it as a superstition if that's what you think. The natural sciences (to which I believe you are alluding) can't answer all of man's question. You forget philosophy is a science and in no way incompatible with the natural sciences.

Dave is a charlatan because he works for and enables an organisation that claims it can 'rehabilitate' homosexuals to lead intimate relationships with the opposite sex and that it can literally use supernatural powers to cure cancer. That is superstitious, irrational and anti-scientific and, more to the point, is a rotten, cynical lie.

Philosophy is not a specifically scientific way of rationalising evidence and data, It is actually the scientific approach which deals with establishing scientific facts.

Philosophy can take a scientific approach, or a spiritual, religious or other superstitious approach and reach vastly different conclusions. That is why there are so many varied forms of philosophic disciplines. None of which can unarguably state that truth has been established.

Only scientific analysis can say, after much rigorous testing and dealing with all reasonable criticism, whether a truth has been established or not.

"Man's questions" do not necessarily come up with definitive solutions, but what they can expose is the sham of easy solutions, superstition being one of them.

Most Judaic belief systems espouse something not dissimilair to that which Dave claims he can do, all that proves is the shamanic role that some practioners try to make the rest of us believe they have. It still all comes down to flim flam in the end.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by housemate

And many agree with you, to a degree and I am an (..allbeit unbaptised) Christian.. I agree with you.
Dave seems to have invented his own branch of Faith which has introduced lots of supersticious beings such as fairies, werewolves and the like into its teaching. This does offend me because he incorporates it all under the same banner of 'Christian Faith' and 'Gods Glory'... etc.. etc..
I can understand that you might argue that in your view it is the same thing ... in my view it is most certainly not. I'd go further and say it brings my beliefs into disrepute... it also thoroughly undermines the good, faith can bring to those who need it.

I do understand what you mean. Thing is, I don't have a problem with anyone believing anything they feel drawn to if they have faith in it. If we start to say that people can follow the main Christian religions, but not the offshoots of it, then we surely have to look at all religions and see whether they are worthy of being allowed followers. And who's going to say what's right and what's wrong? What's worthy and what's not?

If Dave has invented his own branch of faith, then he's following in the footsteps of many other people. The Christian church is younger than my own religion (the one I was born into) by about three thousand years. The Church of England is barely five hundred years old and was itself once a new branch of Christianity devised so someone could get a divorce that the Catholic church wouldn't give him. That doesn't make Christianity invalid in my eyes. Live and let live, I reckon, and let people follow the faith they choose.

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

You are STILL linking him to the clergy

Which is not remotely the same as calling them identical things. And as I've already said, your point doesn't even have any relevance to the conversation. My point would stand regardless of whether or not anyone would call Dave clergy. As far as I'm concerned, that's a petty political matter. If you're going to consider Dave a conman, you must consider ALL myth salesmen as con men, and that includes the clergy.

[housemate]

Originally Posted by Livia

I do understand what you mean. Thing is, I don't have a problem with anyone believing anything they feel drawn to if they have faith in it. If we start to say that people can follow the main Christian religions, but not the offshoots of it, then we surely have to look at all religions and see whether they are worthy of being allowed followers. And who's going to say what's right and what's wrong? What's worthy and what's not?

If Dave has invented his own branch of faith, then he's following in the footsteps of many other people. The Christian church is younger than my own religion (the one I was born into) by about three thousand years. The Church of England is barely five hundred years old and was itself once a new branch of Christianity devised so someone could get a divorce that the Catholic church wouldn't give him. That doesn't make Christianity invalid in my eyes. Live and let live, I reckon, and let people follow the faith they choose.

Right .. totally agree except that he has gone in there under the guise of being a preacher ... not an individual.
I find it offensive to see and hear him fly in the face (lying, scheming and being entirely vile about his 'friends) of the teachings and morals he reads everyday, and which he claims he believes in ..and this sometimes just moments after waving his Bible around.
I don't give a flying fig what his belief system is, good luck to him but why should he feel free to mock the people who belong to the Christian Faith ,who also read those passages and regard them WITH some reverance?
Its totally wrong of him in my opinion.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by housemate

Right .. totally agree except that he has gone in there under the guise of being a preacher ... not an individual.
I find it offensive to see and hear him fly in the face (lying, scheming and being entirely vile about his 'friends) of the teachings and morals he reads everyday, and which he claims he believes in ..and this sometimes just moments after waving his Bible around.
I don't give a flying fig what his belief system is, good luck to him but why should he feel free to mock the people who belong to the Christian Faith ,who also read those passages and regard them WITH some reverance?
Its totally wrong of him in my opinion.

Yeah, I can see you could find that offensive. However, religious freedom is a right that goes back to the Magna Carta, and it's a right that is upheld in this country now more than ever. I wonder what Jesus would make of him?

Anyway... I'm off to bed. It's been nice, and interesting, to talk to you.

[Jamietwo]

anyone making claims that they can cure cancer is problematic for several reasons...mainly it messes with the feelings of the sufferer and thier families...I had a freind that worked in a centre for terminaly ill children, and delusional mad 'healers' were an occupational hazard, the ONLY effect these types had was to mess witht the heads of the children and thier families, ultimately causing a lot of stress. I'm not talking about the quietly done spiritual healing where no claims are made, but the religious fevour Dave types, these people can become quite aggresive if the familiy tell them they are not needed any more telling the familiy they are responsible for killing the child, or if (as always) no healing occurs, that it is the fault of the sufferer or family for not having faith etc. ..... this is not just a case of all religions claiming unbelievable stuff , most relions do not claim to cure cancer, it is highly unethical and damaging.

[housemate]

Night night xx I enjoyed hearing your points too, thanks

[housemate]

Originally Posted by Jamietwo

anyone making claims that they can cure cancer is problematic for several reasons...mainly it messes with the feelings of the sufferer and thier families...I had a freind that worked in a centre for terminaly ill children, and delusional mad 'healers' were an occupational hazard, the ONLY effect these types had was to mess witht the heads of the children and thier families, ultimately causing a lot of stress. I'm not talking about the quietly done spiritual healing where no claims are made, but the religious fevour Dave types, these people can become quite aggresive if the familiy tell them they are not needed any more telling the familiy they are responsible for killing the child, or if (as always) no healing occurs, that it is the fault of the sufferer or family for not having faith etc. ..... this is not just a case of all religions claiming unbelievable stuff , most relions do not claim to cure cancer, it is highly unethical and damaging.

My sister died of throat cancer five years ago .. it was horrific , we fell into the catagory of being desperate enough to try anything .. I'm just so thankfull that I didn't encounter the kind of experiance you describe.. her death nearly killed me, I don't think I would have been strong enough to overcome somebody telling me that she had died because of me.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by housemate

My sister died of throat cancer five years ago .. it was horrific , we fell into the catagory of being desperate enough to try anything .. I'm just so thankfull that I didn't encounter the kind of experiance you describe.. her death nearly killed me, I don't think I would have been strong enough to overcome somebody telling me that she had died because of me.

When that horrid word is said to you ,you would do ANYTHING to live ,people like Dave take advantage of this and make money from it ,it is wrong and he and people like him need outing

[jools]

My late father was a vicar,and I can not ever think of him as a con man,as he truely believed in his work.The "church",that my parents later became involved in,were,in my eyes,the true con men.They ruled us with fear,and took our money,and caused devastation in our family.Several years after my parents left that church,my father died of cancer,and we were told by the leaders of the bad church,that it was gods punishment for our having left,that was preety hard to take.

[champagne.charlie]

Dave's cult members or his wife? are now starting to delete the youtube videos which expose him as a nasty conman.


Please watch them NOW if you haven't already seen them.


Below is a link to the now infamous video of Dave pretending to be wheelchair bound and being wheeled around a town centre 'blessing' people for cash donations. He's then seen standing and walking around, laughing loudly with his followers about how much easier it is to get plently (60 in one begging session!) of donations by using the wheelchair for sympathy.


Then he tells his followers to buy second hand wheelchairs on ebay to use them for the same purpose. He says he's now got 3 wheelchairs himself. Then he mocks some Muslims for having their photo taken with him, and laughs about a man who had a bad foot but who said he felt better after Dave blessed him!


Watch now before the clip gets deleted, or you will hardly believe what this guy is really like.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkgdKiSzx0
If the link doesn't work, please cut and paste into your browser, or search for Dave Vaughan on Youtube. (There are still other bad films about him).


Let me know what you think.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by champagne.charlie

Dave's cult members or his wife? are now starting to delete the youtube videos which expose him as a nasty conman.... etc. etc. etc.

You're spamming now. This was the title post in your other thread.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by champagne.charlie

Dave's cult members or his wife? are now starting to delete the youtube videos which expose him as a nasty conman.


Please watch them NOW if you haven't already seen them.


Below is a link to the now infamous video of Dave pretending to be wheelchair bound and being wheeled around a town centre 'blessing' people for cash donations. He's then seen standing and walking around, laughing loudly with his followers about how much easier it is to get plently (60 in one begging session!) of donations by using the wheelchair for sympathy.


Then he tells his followers to buy second hand wheelchairs on ebay to use them for the same purpose. He says he's now got 3 wheelchairs himself. Then he mocks some Muslims for having their photo taken with him, and laughs about a man who had a bad foot but who said he felt better after Dave blessed him!


Watch now before the clip gets deleted, or you will hardly believe what this guy is really like.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkgdKiSzx0
If the link doesn't work, please cut and paste into your browser, or search for Dave Vaughan on Youtube. (There are still other bad films about him).


Let me know what you think.

His mates/disciples/Fellow mobsters look like they are on a day out from Wormwood Scrubs ,hardly Preists are they ? what a set of crooks ,PLEASE all send links to these videos to EVERY newspaper in the UK, out and STOP THIS CONNING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE ONCE AND FOR ALL