[Marsh.]

It makes me laugh when people say just because they're playboy bunnies and models that they shouldn't be spoken about the way Kirk and Frankie have is ridiculous.
And when the twins said it's disrespectful "especially to us" as though they're high and mighty.

They chose a career of getting their bits out for calendars and magazines. Who do they think buys these magazines? Little hormonal masturbating teenagers of course.
I mean they deserve as much respect as prostitutes due to the fact they sold their soul or at least their bodies to Hugh Hefner.

They earn their money from the wanking Frank Cocozza's of this world. Don't bite the hands that feed you girls, or maybe the hands that shake.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I mean they deserve as much respect as prostitutes due to the fact they sold their soul or at least their bodies to Hugh Hefner.

Well that statement just about killed the whole idea of female power didn't it?

Isn't there a current movement called the "Slut Walk"? That explaining, or excusing, rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance is just plain wrong? That women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s?

There is a woman in the BB house that is "famous" for sleeping with her husbands brother, but the twins, who are essentially glamour models, are prostitutes. My head kinda hurts on that one - and before anyone knocks me, I like Nat, she seems sweet.

But in a house where the most intelligent thing Frankie has said is that looking at the girls makes him want to wank. And where Kirks idea of a chat up line - "nice tits, are they real?", the playboy twins are soulless and shouldn't be given respect....the mind boggles...

(Wow! What a rant! )

[kefln]

And now for my opinion...

The twins are arrogant, but not exactly in a bad way. They are self aware enough to try and make money off their looks. But they don't seem stupid about it, they seem to understand that its a business. That there is a line and they want to be respected.

Within the walls of the playboy mansion its likely that they've met alot of Kirks and Frankies. One being a rich kid who thinks he's someone and the other just being a walking hormone ball. They know how to handle it and are strong enough not to let it get out of control.

For the most part they seem quite savvy and they can talk things through together and with others in the house. They are more than two dumb blondes who take their boobs out and brush their hair.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by kefln

And now for my opinion...

The twins are arrogant, but not exactly in a bad way. They are self aware enough to try and make money off their looks. But they don't seem stupid about it, they seem to understand that its a business. That there is a line and they want to be respected.

Within the walls of the playboy mansion its likely that they've met alot of Kirks and Frankies. One being a rich kid who thinks he's someone and the other just being a walking hormone ball. They know how to handle it and are strong enough not to let it get out of control.

For the most part they seem quite savvy and they can talk things through together and with others in the house. They are more than two dumb blondes who take their boobs out and brush their hair.

Yeah I think most expected them to be stereotypical dumb blondes with that awful squarky american accent. Also to probably lead Frankie and Kirk on in some way. Bet they didn't even expect them to be so sharp tongued, their heads are definitely screwed on right. Nothing wrong with telling silly little boys where to go, especially when there is nothing in it for them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kefln

Well that statement just about killed the whole idea of female power didn't it?

Isn't there a current movement called the "Slut Walk"? That explaining, or excusing, rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance is just plain wrong? That women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s?

There is a woman in the BB house that is "famous" for sleeping with her husbands brother, but the twins, who are essentially glamour models, are prostitutes. My head kinda hurts on that one - and before anyone knocks me, I like Nat, she seems sweet.

But in a house where the most intelligent thing Frankie has said is that looking at the girls makes him want to wank. And where Kirks idea of a chat up line - "nice tits, are they real?", the playboy twins are soulless and shouldn't be given respect....the mind boggles...

(Wow! What a rant! )

Seriously? You think women like the twins promote female power?

Speaking as a professional in a male-dominated area of work, the slut walk to me is nothing more than a bunch of sluts making everyone look at them. How women expect to dress like streetwalkers and command respect is beyond me, in much the same way I'd find it hard to respect a bloke in a mankini.

So, Frankie said they make him want to masterbate (paraphrasing, obviously). Well? What about it? Isn't that their main function? The fact that lots of men would sleep with them given half the chance doesn't do much in my opinion to command "respect".

The twins make a living from the sex industry. They aren't just glamour models, they spent two years at the Playboy Mansion... I'm not going into what went on, they've been pretty open about that. They've sold sex and the idea of sex and they've been paid. I have no problem with woman earning their money any way they choose so long as they aren't coerced and they're happy doing it. But don't expect people to respect them like they've studied for their art.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by Livia

Seriously? You think women like the twins promote female power?

Speaking as a professional in a male-dominated area of work, the slut walk to me is nothing more than a bunch of sluts making everyone look at them. How women expect to dress like streetwalkers and command respect is beyond me, in much the same way I'd find it hard to respect a bloke in a mankini.

So, Frankie said they make him want to masterbate (paraphrasing, obviously). Well? What about it? Isn't that their main function? The fact that lots of men would sleep with them given half the chance doesn't do much in my opinion to command "respect".

The twins make a living from the sex industry. They aren't just glamour models, they spent two years at the Playboy Mansion... I'm not going into what went on, they've been pretty open about that. They've sold sex and the idea of sex and they've been paid. I have no problem with woman earning their money any way they choose so long as they aren't coerced and they're happy doing it. But don't expect people to respect them like they've studied for their art.

They twins promote choice in an often double standard world.

They openly sell an image of sex, but they don’t, from what I can see, treat it like anything other than a job. They could have giggled and blown kisses across the room at the boys, basically lived up to the reputation of being brainless t*ts on legs. But they haven’t. Playboy was their job. In the past few days they have admitted that there were aspects that they liked and aspects that they didn’t. They’ve admitted that they have no problem in getting naked for the camera and doing a photoshoot, which is about selling sex. However, on a one to one basis, they like to be treated with a bit of respect. And not having some drooling leach asking them if their boobs and bums are real…

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kefln

They twins promote choice in an often double standard world.

They openly sell an image of sex, but they don’t, from what I can see, treat it like anything other than a job. They could have giggled and blown kisses across the room at the boys, basically lived up to the reputation of being brainless t*ts on legs. But they haven’t. Playboy was their job. In the past few days they have admitted that there were aspects that they liked and aspects that they didn’t. They’ve admitted that they have no problem in getting naked for the camera and doing a photoshoot, which is about selling sex. However, on a one to one basis, they like to be treated with a bit of respect. And not having some drooling leach asking them if their boobs and bums are real…

Drooling men are an aspect of the job. Without those drooling men they'd be doing some other job you don't need any training for but one which pays a lot less.

In your previous post you said they were examples of female power, almost like you thought they were role models. I do not respect them simply because they were born with good looks, which were tweaked by a cosmetic surgeon to enable them to sell sex for Heffner. No one just gets respect. Respect has to be earned... and they haven't earned mine. And where the housemates are concerned, they aren't alone.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by Livia

Drooling men are an aspect of the job. Without those drooling men they'd be doing some other job you don't need any training for but one which pays a lot less.

In your previous post you said they were examples of female power, almost like you thought they were role models. I do not respect them simply because they were born with good looks, which were tweaked by a cosmetic surgeon to enable them to sell sex for Heffner. No one just gets respect. Respect has to be earned... and they haven't earned mine. And where the housemates are concerned, they aren't alone.

Drooling men are part of the job, its expected. As are the questions about the playboy mansion. From what I can see so far they seem open enough about who and what they are. However that does not make them soulless prostitutes that do not deserve a modicum of respect – which is the comment that made me stand up and become involved in this conversation in the first place.

And speaking of jobs that you get paid a lot for, but don’t need any real training, but wouldn’t be involved in if you didn’t have “something” about you - acting, football players, rugby players, singers, dancers, wives and girlfriends of sports personalities… in fact the entire celeb world is full of highly paid, uneducated, good for one thing, personalities. Don’t single out two people just because you, or others, don’t like their particular type of fame. Because lets face it, most female BB contestants end up doing nuts, or zoo, or some such sh*t lads mag…

And again, whether you like it or not, these girls are role models to some. They mightn’t be the best type of role models to have, but there are worse. Amy Winehouse seems to be a national treasure – she was a drunk, a druggie, was married to a guy that’s in and out of prison, she could barely put two words together without slurring, but could sing…when sober…which didn’t seem to be very often. The Gallagher brothers seem to be role models – read all of the above about Amy, but add in violence and abuse too. And do I have to mention Jordan?

Its an unfortunate truth that everyone is entitled to an opinion, to pick their own role models and that certain people will earn a huge amount of money simply because they can smile at a camera with their personals hanging out…

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kefln

Drooling men are part of the job, its expected. As are the questions about the playboy mansion. From what I can see so far they seem open enough about who and what they are. However that does not make them soulless prostitutes that do not deserve a modicum of respect – which is the comment that made me stand up and become involved in this conversation in the first place.

And speaking of jobs that you get paid a lot for, but don’t need any real training, but wouldn’t be involved in if you didn’t have “something” about you - acting, football players, rugby players, singers, dancers, wives and girlfriends of sports personalities… in fact the entire celeb world is full of highly paid, uneducated, good for one thing, personalities. Don’t single out two people just because you, or others, don’t like their particular type of fame. Because lets face it, most female BB contestants end up doing nuts, or zoo, or some such sh*t lads mag…

And again, whether you like it or not, these girls are role models to some. They mightn’t be the best type of role models to have, but there are worse. Amy Winehouse seems to be a national treasure – she was a drunk, a druggie, was married to a guy that’s in and out of prison, she could barely put two words together without slurring, but could sing…when sober…which didn’t seem to be very often. The Gallagher brothers seem to be role models – read all of the above about Amy, but add in violence and abuse too. And do I have to mention Jordan?

Its an unfortunate truth that everyone is entitled to an opinion, to pick their own role models and that certain people will earn a huge amount of money simply because they can smile at a camera with their personals hanging out…

The difference between the twins and Amy Winehouse, and honestly I'm shocked I have to explain this, is that, aside from being a drug addict, she was a talented musician, singer and songwriter. The same goes for the Gallaghers (although I'm not a fan). They have talent. They don't just get their bits out. It's fine if testosterone levels dictate that males think the twins are fine. That's what they're there for... But talented, they ain't.

I do not think the twins are better or worse than other reality show contestants. They have a few years left before the money and interest dries up, so I hope they invest wisely or they find some rich bloke to keep them.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by kefln

And speaking of jobs that you get paid a lot for, but don’t need any real training, but wouldn’t be involved in if you didn’t have “something” about you - acting, football players, rugby players, singers, dancers, wives and girlfriends of sports personalities… in fact the entire celeb world is full of highly paid, uneducated, good for one thing, personalities. Don’t single out two people just because you, or others, don’t like their particular type of fame. Because lets face it, most female BB contestants end up doing nuts, or zoo, or some such sh*t lads mag…

Being a footballer requires a huge amount of training and skill

[Angus]

Originally Posted by kefln

Well that statement just about killed the whole idea of female power didn't it?

Isn't there a current movement called the "Slut Walk"? That explaining, or excusing, rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance is just plain wrong? That women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s?

There is a woman in the BB house that is "famous" for sleeping with her husbands brother, but the twins, who are essentially glamour models, are prostitutes. My head kinda hurts on that one - and before anyone knocks me, I like Nat, she seems sweet.

But in a house where the most intelligent thing Frankie has said is that looking at the girls makes him want to wank. And where Kirks idea of a chat up line - "nice tits, are they real?", the playboy twins are soulless and shouldn't be given respect....the mind boggles...

(Wow! What a rant! )

What are you on about? Of course women should be able to wear what they want without being judged as sluts or *****s. That's not what's under discussion here.

We are talking about two women who effectively sold themselves to Hefner for nigh on two years, ie prostituted themselves for money, fame, whatever. THEY themselves have set the parameters for how they are viewed by others and if anything they encourage sex discrimination by promoting their sexuality as their main, if not sole, attribute, rather than any discernible individual skills, talents or personalities. They get the reaction they do from hormonal boys because it is essential to how they have chosen to earn their living. The minute they stop getting that reaction their so called "careers" will be all washed up, and they'll be the first ones to be complaining.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by Angus

What are you on about? Of course women should be able to wear what they want without being judged as sluts or *****s. That's not what's under discussion here.

We are talking about two women who effectively sold themselves to Hefner for nigh on two years, ie prostituted themselves for money, fame, whatever. THEY themselves have set the parameters for how they are viewed by others and if anything they encourage sex discrimination by promoting their sexuality as their main, if not sole, attribute, rather than any discernible individual skills, talents or personalities. They get the reaction they do from hormonal boys because it is essential to how they have chosen to earn their living. The minute they stop getting that reaction their so called "careers" will be all washed up, and they'll be the first ones to be complaining.

There is a whole section of that which I agree with. In fact I’d imagine that they’d agree with it too. But that doesn’t make it right.
Sex sells. They know it. We know it. There is a billion dollar business based on that fact. Whether you like it, or I like it, it doesn’t matter, its there.

However we don’t know what their contract with Playboy was. They were employees, hired to sell an image. We have no idea what went on behind closed doors. And its unlikely that we ever will, so they shouldn’t be called prostitutes.

On the other hand most famous people prostitute themselves for money. Celeb Big Brother is living proof of it. Singers do it all the time too – x factor. Why is it that we see footballers like David Beckham on advertisement posters wearing nothing but tighty whities? Would Broke back mountain have become a huge hit if it had stared Alan Carr and Marilyn Manson? No – sex sells.

This is not about whether you agree with their choice of career or not. They still have the right to separate their professional life and their personal.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by kefln

Sex sells. They know it. We know it.

Which is exactly where my prostitute comparison came from.

Don't bring women's rights into a discussion about playboy bunnies who are purely there as sexual objects for horny teens and their dirty 80 yo boss who has a rota for shagging them. That in itself sets a precedent for how they're perceived.

It's like having sex in the middle of the office at work and expecting to not be judged about it. If you haven't got self respect then how are people going to respect you.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Which is exactly where my prostitute comparison came from.

Don't bring women's rights into a discussion about playboy bunnies who are purely there as sexual objects for horny teens and their dirty 80 yo boss who has a rota for shagging them. That in itself sets a precedent for how they're perceived.

It's like having sex in the middle of the office at work and expecting to not be judged about it. If you haven't got self respect then how are people going to respect you.

Personal opinion!

If they are comfortable with their "career", thats up to them. But witch hunts based on the opinions of others are never pretty...

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Which is exactly where my prostitute comparison came from.

Don't bring women's rights into a discussion about playboy bunnies who are purely there as sexual objects for horny teens and their dirty 80 yo boss who has a rota for shagging them. That in itself sets a precedent for how they're perceived.

It's like having sex in the middle of the office at work and expecting to not be judged about it. If you haven't got self respect then how are people going to respect you.

Every industry on Earth exploits sex, not just the sex industry.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Every industry on Earth exploits sex, not just the sex industry.

There's a difference between sex references and having sex with dirty old man for money and a career. They are no better than street walkers. Dirty, horrid little sluts. And that goes for all of these "bunnies".

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by kefln

Well that statement just about killed the whole idea of female power didn't it?

Isn't there a current movement called the "Slut Walk"? That explaining, or excusing, rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance is just plain wrong? That women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s?

There is a woman in the BB house that is "famous" for sleeping with her husbands brother, but the twins, who are essentially glamour models, are prostitutes. My head kinda hurts on that one - and before anyone knocks me, I like Nat, she seems sweet.

But in a house where the most intelligent thing Frankie has said is that looking at the girls makes him want to wank. And where Kirks idea of a chat up line - "nice tits, are they real?", the playboy twins are soulless and shouldn't be given respect....the mind boggles...

(Wow! What a rant! )

I suggest you stop right there. Don't try to infer that I was making out girls deserve to be raped because they dress provocatively or whatever. That WASN'T my point.

If you re-read my post you'll see I said they were just like prostitutes because as playboy bunnies they are there to be paid for Hugh Hefner's perverted pleasure. Anyone who thinks they lived in his mansion and have not had any sexual contact with him must be naive. THAT'S where my prostitute comparison came in. They shagged an 80 odd year old man to get by in life and earn money from horny masturbating little boys like Frankie Cocozza, so it's a bit rich when they say Frankie's attitude towards them is disrespectful as they disrespect themselves in the public eye having done what they've done.

The calendars and magazines they pose for are there PURELY for the gratification of people who find those images arousing, like porn.

Completely different to a model in a clothing catalogue or advert which has an entirely different purpose.

Don't turn my point into a generalised viewpoint of women in general, or even models in general.

And, yes, I agree what a rant.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

If you re-read my post you'll see I said they were just like prostitutes because as playboy bunnies they are there to be paid for Hugh Hefner's perverted pleasure. Anyone who thinks they lived in his mansion and have not had any sexual contact with him must be naive.

THAT'S where my prostitute comparison came in. They shagged an 80 odd year old man to get by in life and earn money from horny masturbating little boys like Frankie Cocozza, so it's a bit rich when they say Frankie's attitude towards them is disrespectful as they disrespect themselves in the public eye having done what they've done.

That would be called personal opinion.

The facts are that you, me and anyone reading this post have no idea what happened in the playboy mansion.

We can assume - we've all heard the stories - but we don't ACTUALLY KNOW what the twins and Hef ACTUALLY did together.

Their ACTUAL job was the promotion of the Playboy empire.

They even said that they weren't allowed down to half the parties there. That most of the time they were bored, just sitting around the house.

So yes d*mning someone as a prostitute based simply on how you view the situation...

And there are vast differences between a persons professional life and their personal life. Like it or not the so called glamour modeling life is a business and playboy is a part of that life. If a girl chooses to pose nude for a camera, that does not make her a *****. And believe it or not that doesn't mean that people can call her one.

[calyman]

Originally Posted by kefln

That would be called personal opinion.

The facts are that you, me and anyone reading this post have no idea what happened in the playboy mansion.

We can assume - we've all heard the stories - but we don't ACTUALLY KNOW what the twins and Hef ACTUALLY did together.

Their ACTUAL job was the promotion of the Playboy empire.

They even said that they weren't allowed down to half the parties there. That most of the time they were bored, just sitting around the house.

So yes d*mning someone as a prostitute based simply on how you view the situation...

And there are vast differences between a persons professional life and their personal life. Like it or not the so called glamour modeling life is a business and playboy is a part of that life. If a girl chooses to pose nude for a camera, that does not make her a *****. And believe it or not that doesn't mean that people can call her one.

In the same context, you defend them as if they haven't done any of those things, you justify their acknowledged sexual commerce as legitimate, which is merely your own personal opinion, no more relevant than the many others who see them as just highly paid sex workers who arrogantly expect to be treated with respect by others.

If they expect to be treated as "ladies", then why make a career built on being overpaid slappers who graduated from the Heffner Harem.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

If they're comfortable with their "career" that's fine. But to act as though they're worth more than the cheap glossy covers they pose on is pretty delusional.

I’m sorry, but I’m slightly confused. When exactly did they act like they are worth more than their “cheap glossy covers”? They have been asked about playboy and they’ve answered fairly honestly. And apart from that they have been mingling with the others. The only “sex” talk is coming from the boys – two in particular.

Originally Posted by 08marsh

To act as though being sexualised by two young boys is demeaning and disrespectful when it's for that reason they have a "career" in the first place is ridiculous. That's the point I was trying to make.

Again, as I’ve mentioned before, there are vast differences between being photographed professionally as a “model” and having someone leach over you in your sitting room. Business v’s personal.

The twins are on the show to increase their profile in the UK. Chances are they will get a few mag deals out of it. Perhaps a few spots on TV shows. Once they are done they’ll hop back across the pond and we’ll probably never hear of them again. That’s business. That’s how they have chosen to make their living.

But they are allowed have an opinion about those that are in their personal space, about comments made to their faces, or behind their backs.

You called two girls prostitutes simply because you disagree with their chosen career. You said that :

“I mean they deserve as much respect as prostitutes due to the fact they sold their soul or at least their bodies to Hugh Hefner.”

That

“They earn their money from the wanking Frank Cocozza's of this world. Don't bite the hands that feed you girls”

To put it simply, soulless *****s, that should mind their tongue and remember their place.

And that I disagree with. My reply was simple, that women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s.

Just because you don’t like their chosen lifestyle doesn’t mean that their opinion is worthless. And you’ve already made up your mind on them, as you so tastefully put it:

“They shagged an 80 odd year old man to get by in life”

“their dirty 80 yo boss who has a rota for shagging them”

“whether they physically shagged the old perv or not”

You have made your judgement. You have taken a perceived image and d*mned them for it.

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I never made out it was anything but my own opinion. This is a forum I don't have to state it in every post that what I'm saying is an opinion. And I stand by my OPINION

Good for you. We are all entitled to an opinion. Even playboy bunnies…

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by kefln

I’m sorry, but I’m slightly confused. When exactly did they act like they are worth more than their “cheap glossy covers”? They have been asked about playboy and they’ve answered fairly honestly. And apart from that they have been mingling with the others. The only “sex” talk is coming from the boys – two in particular.


Again, as I’ve mentioned before, there are vast differences between being photographed professionally as a “model” and having someone leach over you in your sitting room. Business v’s personal.

The twins are on the show to increase their profile in the UK. Chances are they will get a few mag deals out of it. Perhaps a few spots on TV shows. Once they are done they’ll hop back across the pond and we’ll probably never hear of them again. That’s business. That’s how they have chosen to make their living.

But they are allowed have an opinion about those that are in their personal space, about comments made to their faces, or behind their backs.

You called two girls prostitutes simply because you disagree with their chosen career. You said that :

“I mean they deserve as much respect as prostitutes due to the fact they sold their soul or at least their bodies to Hugh Hefner.”

That

“They earn their money from the wanking Frank Cocozza's of this world. Don't bite the hands that feed you girls”

To put it simply, soulless *****s, that should mind their tongue and remember their place.

And that I disagree with. My reply was simple, that women, like men, should be allowed to wear and say what they want without being judged as sluts, or *****s.

Just because you don’t like their chosen lifestyle doesn’t mean that their opinion is worthless. And you’ve already made up your mind on them, as you so tastefully put it:

“They shagged an 80 odd year old man to get by in life”

“their dirty 80 yo boss who has a rota for shagging them”

“whether they physically shagged the old perv or not”

You have made your judgement. You have taken a perceived image and d*mned them for it.


Good for you. We are all entitled to an opinion. Even playboy bunnies…

That last comment is laughable, I never said they are not entitled to do as they please or have their own opinion. I said they are free to do as they please.
As far as finding themselves worth more than the glossy covers has got nothing to do with "sex talk", it's to do with the conversations they've had regarding Frankie and Kirk's behaviour around them. They spoke as though the sexual objection of women was disrespectful to them and everyone else, YET that is their living objectifying women in wank mags. If girls like them didn't so overtly sexualise their tits with silicone implants, blonde hair, sex tapes and magazines (and this isn't a generalisation, these twins have done that) then maybe there wouldn't be such a huge problem with disrespectful little boys.

And yet from my "sold soul and body" you still do not understand my prostitute comparison. It's got nothing to do with the way they dress or the way they speak.

They are comparable to street walkers BECAUSE THEY SLEEEP/SLEPT WITH A DIRTY OLD MAN FOR MONEY AND CAREER OPPORTUNITIES.

If you don't believe they did that, that's your opinion.

And yes I judged them on a perceived image, a perceived image they THEY PERSONALLY gave me. So, I'd call that a pretty accurate judgement.