[Beastie]

Originally Posted by lostalex

a fetus is not a life, it's just a growth, a parasite. That's my opinion.

A life becomes a life when it is capable of sustaining itself outside of the mother's body.

As long as it is reliant on the mother's body, it is part of the mother's body, it is not an independent life. It is just a growth on the mother's body and a woman should have complete control and decision making over her own body. If it was possible to transfer that growth to the father, then i think absolutely he should have the choice to take on that growth, but since that's not possible, all decisions should be with the mother/host.

Maybe some day it will be possible for men to carry children, but until that day comes, they have no right to tell women what to do with their bodies. If they don't like it then they should've worn a condom. period.

I agree with this. However if a woman falls pregnant they should still listen to the father of their potential baby's opinion. Not shut them out because it is 50/50. However of course the overule decision is from the mother because it is her body as well as the baby inside it.

I am for pro choice. But contracepton etc.. should be more easily available for young people and older people to use to prevent from unwanted pregnancies happening. Unfortunately a 13 year old in this day and age should be on the pill if they are having sex. Better off than getting pregnant. Either that or not have sex at all. I always think that our natural bodies should grow through puberty and not take things like the "pill" at such a young and vulnerable age. But desperate decisions leads to desperate measures and precautions.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Beastie

I agree with this. However if a woman falls pregnant they should still listen to the father of their potential baby's opinion. Not shut them out because it is 50/50. However of course the overule decision is from the mother because it is her body as well as the baby inside it.

I am for pro choice. But contracepton etc.. should be more easily available for young people and older people to use to prevent from unwanted pregnancies happening. Unfortunately a 13 year old in this day and age should be on the pill if they are having sex. Better off than getting pregnant. Either that or not have sex at all. I always think that our natural bodies should grow through puberty and not take things like the "pill" at such a young and vulnerable age. But desperate decisions leads to desperate measures and precautions.

great post , far more humane and less bitter than lost alexs post....fathers do actually care if their baby is murdered, yet according to the radical feminists they dont even have the right to an opinion. it seems perfectly decent and logical to offer the both parents as much advice and information as possible at school and during pregnancy, so they can make an informed choice. I also think smoking during pregnancy must be highlighted and targeted as something thats murdering babies in the womb.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by the truth

great post , far more humane and less bitter than lost alexs post....fathers do actually care if their baby is murdered, yet according to the radical feminists they dont even have the right to an opinion. it seems perfectly decent and logical to offer the both parents as much advice and information as possible at school and during pregnancy, so they can make an informed choice. I also think smoking during pregnancy must be highlighted and targeted as something thats murdering babies in the womb.

I do agree with you that Fathers deserve rights when it ones to unborn children but it is just impossible to enforce.....it is horribly unfair that a guy who wants a child that's been conceived has very few, if any right, to an opinion before that child is born.

I also agree with the smoking thing but I think again that if the fathers a smoker too his smoking should be addressed as the second hand smoke is just as damaging to a developing foetus..

Equality goes both ways and as women we make many sacrifices during pregnancy for the safety of the baby regarding what we eat, drink, breathe in and how we medicate ourselves, IMO fathers should make the same sacrifices....but they rarely do...

[lostalex]

i never said father's shouldn't have rights to their children. I said that women get to control their own bodies. and until the baby is ready to come out and survive on it's own, it is not a baby, it is just a leech, and it's only the woman's decision what to do with that leech. Deciding whether or not to terminate, is her decision alone, and no man should have any say in that decision. but if the woman decides to carry the baby to full term, then absolutely, it is then a baby and a new life, and the father should then be an equal partner, and ofcourse the father should also be fully responsible for the financial needs of that child.

If the woman decides to carry out the entire pregnancy and there is a baby then i agree that a father then has equal rights to his child. And equal responsibilities. (especially financial responsibilities)

[Withano]

Abortion is a cruel or dumb humans contraception.
There are few exceptional cases, but most people who have this done are murderers. Millions of people waiting to adopt a baby you'd never love, but you keep happiness from them too.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by BigBrother3232

Abortion is a cruel or dumb humans contraception.
There are few exceptional cases, but most people who have this done are murderers. Millions of people waiting to adopt a baby you'd never love, but you keep happiness from them too.

Whilst I agree that there are many people waiting to adopt, there are also thousands of slightly older children who get ignored by many as they want a baby. It would be nice if people waiting to adopt could all have that little newborn bundle but in reality this rarely happens. Most adoptions don't happen until a baby is around 10 months and during this time is in the care system. I would like to see the older children waiting for adoption did their families than forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child that will become a statistic in the system.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by anniek76

I do agree with you that Fathers deserve rights when it ones to unborn children but it is just impossible to enforce.....it is horribly unfair that a guy who wants a child that's been conceived has very few, if any right, to an opinion before that child is born.

I also agree with the smoking thing but I think again that if the fathers a smoker too his smoking should be addressed as the second hand smoke is just as damaging to a developing foetus..

Equality goes both ways and as women we make many sacrifices during pregnancy for the safety of the baby regarding what we eat, drink, breathe in and how we medicate ourselves, IMO fathers should make the same sacrifices....but they rarely do...

agree 100% any smoking near a pregnant woman should be stopped. if a bloke smoked near my missus and refused to put it out, Id put him out.
smoking kills babies simple as that.

as for enforcing any kind of fathers rights, I agree its virtually impossible. I think a system should be in place that brings more balance to the situation. it shouldnt be seen as men forcing women to do things, it should be seen as a loving father who has helped produce this baby having a right to have his opinion heard. the fact is we are near the top of the league in terms of abortions. over 1 in 5 pregnancies is aborted in the UK? thats over 1 million aborted babies in 6 years? it cant go on like this. we need better education, better information, better dialogue...we also need to remove the overly loud radical feminists from the debate and hear more from mothers and fathers and health professionals....we also rewrad people who get pregnant young with free housing immediately and a lifetime of benefits....everyone is suffering due often to simple lack of communication and information between the nhs and the parents and between the parents themselves?

the attitude that lost alex portrays here is the scariest thing Ive ever heard in my life. as if everytime any man offers an opinion he should be silnced because all men are some kind of neanderthal sexist mysogynist bullies? we all look for advice, opinions and information in all situations. even more so when dealing with pregnancies. often young girls pregnant and young fathers are ignorant to the complexities and all the surrounding issues. ask most young people and they arent even aware that smoking kills, let alone kills babies and dont even get me started on drink and drugs

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

i never said father's shouldn't have rights to their children. I said that women get to control their own bodies. and until the baby is ready to come out and survive on it's own, it is not a baby, it is just a leech, and it's only the woman's decision what to do with that leech. Deciding whether or not to terminate, is her decision alone, and no man should have any say in that decision. but if the woman decides to carry the baby to full term, then absolutely, it is then a baby and a new life, and the father should then be an equal partner, and ofcourse the father should also be fully responsible for the financial needs of that child.

If the woman decides to carry out the entire pregnancy and there is a baby then i agree that a father then has equal rights to his child. And equal responsibilities. (especially financial responsibilities)

an unborn baby is just a leech? Am I the only person who finds these words horrific and deranged?

[Munchkins]

I just think that in any age of pregnancy, more advice and emotional support needs to be given to the father. Yes he may not be carrying the baby, but he's still going to feel the emotional ramifications, of if the baby is aborted, or if the baby is born and he can't cope, we hear all about post natal depression for women, but men don't have that emotional support
As a girl myself, i'd like to think that if i do ever have children, the father will be as equally involved, and will have a bond before the baby is born, just as mothers usually do

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

an unborn baby is just a leech? Am I the only person who finds these words horrific and deranged?

really? yur offended by that. yur not offended by the person saying that all women who have an abortion are MURDERERS, yur not offended by that?

We are sooo VERY far apart dude. very VERY far apart.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

really? yur offended by that. yur not offended by the person saying that all women who have an abortion are MURDERERS, yur not offended by that?

We are sooo VERY far apart dude. very VERY far apart.

yes killing off babies is a profound matter, a few words to get offended by is trivial , Im profound, youre trivial

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

I just think that in any age of pregnancy, more advice and emotional support needs to be given to the father. Yes he may not be carrying the baby, but he's still going to feel the emotional ramifications, of if the baby is aborted, or if the baby is born and he can't cope, we hear all about post natal depression for women, but men don't have that emotional support
As a girl myself, i'd like to think that if i do ever have children, the father will be as equally involved, and will have a bond before the baby is born, just as mothers usually do

youre a good person munchkins, you care about other people and take their opinions into account, you dont discriminate against men simply because they are men. You will make a great parent.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes killing off babies is a profound matter, a few words to get offended by is trivial , Im profound, youre trivial

or...you're full of hyperbole and i'm being reasonable...

one or the other...

[Saph]

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre a good person munchkins, you care about other people and take their opinions into account, you dont discriminate against men simply because they are men. You will make a great parent.

Thank you i just think it's important to see both sides of the coin in every debate tbh. I really do feel sorry for men in this day and age, the amount of adverts that now discriminate against them etc. Yes sexism is still prevalent towards women, but it is so looked down on if any man makes a joke about a woman, but it seems ok for vice versa. I also may only be 16 and therefore way far off pregnancy, but i think its important to research the topic even if it is many years off
I went off topic there, but oh well

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Saph

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Saph

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

id rather give a beautiful innocent baby a chance to live. if his/her family isnt up to it, he/she can always be adopted or fostered, perhaps in years to come the baby can return to its home. but at least if its allowed to live it has a chance at a life.

[Saph]

Originally Posted by lostalex

yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

well that would be considered an unloving family

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

yea, or they would just pawn it off to their mom to take care off while they go out and get drunk every night...

more generalized sexist male hating discrimination, you need help

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Thank you i just think it's important to see both sides of the coin in every debate tbh. I really do feel sorry for men in this day and age, the amount of adverts that now discriminate against them etc. Yes sexism is still prevalent towards women, but it is so looked down on if any man makes a joke about a woman, but it seems ok for vice versa. I also may only be 16 and therefore way far off pregnancy, but i think its important to research the topic even if it is many years off
I went off topic there, but oh well

there is no vice versa. because there is not centuries of history of women abusing and raping and murdering men, so you can't really say that things should be equal, because history is not equal. Perhaps if women abuse and rape and murder men for a few thousand years, THEN we can start pretending things are equal...that's gonna be at least a thousand years from now though... it's not gonna be any time soon...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

or...you're full of hyperbole and i'm being reasonable...

one or the other...

wrong again. you call babies leeches? that sounds deranged to anyone with a brain. you also get more offended by words like murdered than you do about the act of being murdered, again to anyone with a brain you sound deranged.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by the truth

wrong again. you call babies leeches? that sounds deranged to anyone with a brain. you also get more offended by words like murdered than you do about the act of being murdered, again to anyone with a brain you sound deranged.

no, it's just a scientific fact.. babies are leeches/parasites... thats how they grow. look it up.

[Saph]

Originally Posted by the truth

id rather give a beautiful innocent baby a chance to live. if his/her family isnt up to it, he/she can always be adopted or fostered, perhaps in years to come the baby can return to its home. but at least if its allowed to live it has a chance at a life.

true, you do hear of people who get treated badly as children and grow up to help make sure the same doesn't happen to others, in those cases there can be a some good in it.

[lostalex]

You guys can pretend there is a happy ending for these kids, when the fact is, it AINT so ROSY. keep pretending though. It's cute.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Saph

I'd rather a baby be aborted than be born into an unloving family, but most people who do have abortions would probably find that once the baby is born, they'd still love it unconditionally .

There are always alternatives, though. There are plenty of couples out there who are desperate for children. If one couple doesn't want the child, s/he can easily be put up for adoption or something.

Fair enough about a fetus under 24 weeks old not being a full living being, but I'd rather they were given the chance to live and contribute to society rather than having all those objectives cut off because the mother "wasn't ready" or whatever.

Rape or incest are obviously a lot different but I think the current laws are far too lenient.