[Z]

My own view on religion vs science is that religion views science as an adversary and science views religion in a condescending way. Generally speaking, of course. To my mind; science explains religion, and religion explains science. There've just been too many human conflicts over the matter for anyone to really concede that they are one and the same. Religion and religious teachings sought to 'explain' that which could not be explained. Science is now filling in the blanks.

Of course, none of that really answers the OP question about an after life

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't believe in reincarnation as such in that we come back until we get it right..?...but if people do believe that then so be it, I can't disprove it either and nor can anyone else...I do however believe that our bodies expire but our energy does not and is possible 'somewhere'..the thing that makes us, us and unique and that's certainly not our bodies but something else...you can call it a soul if you want, it's only a word and doesn't matter what you call....

...I'm not stupid, naïve whatever..I don't need any comfort blankets when someone I love dies, I say this because I believe it to be true and at least a possibility and to refuse it as a possibility is just as naïve as the reverse is....

I disagree with that last bit. I've never discounted it as a possibility, but people need to bring more to the table than "I believe this". I promise you now, if someone provided evidence and could prove that Thor, Osiris, Reincarnation, Zeus, Yaweh (delete as applicable), then I'd drop to my knees and worship it instantly.

My ideas are solid based on what we know, if what we know changes then I don't have that intellectual rigidity to flog the dead horse.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

How so? I'll ignore the classic ad hominem. Point out which bits of that post are actually untrue?

I didn't say they were untrue, I said they were conjecture.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I disagree with that last bit. I've never discounted it as a possibility, but people need to bring more to the table than "I believe this". I promise you now, if someone provided evidence and could prove that Thor, Osiris, Reincarnation, Zeus, Yaweh (delete as applicable), then I'd drop to my knees and worship it instantly.

My ideas are solid based on what we know, if what we know changes then I don't have that intellectual rigidity to flog the dead horse.

...you need absolute 'proof' of things though and I don't believe that everything in this universe does have to be proved, I think there's a balance because a large part of the human make-up is emotional and not something tangible...emotions drive us and rule us as much as anything so there isn't any reason for me to not believe that when we die there is something more than our bodies, which may expire with us, I don't know for sure that it doesn't but I don't know that it does either and I'm open to those possibilities...and for me it doesn't matter why I'm open to it..?..whether it's because of religious beliefs or anything else...when someone says something to me..anything in everyday life, I don't ask them for proof..I believe things without having to always have that proof....

Originally Posted by Livia

I didn't say they were untrue, I said they were conjecture.

Is it conjecture that we see death?
Is it conjecture that we see the process the body goes through after death?
Is it conjecture that those with beliefs believe they have access to other information that negates those first 2 things?

I fail to see how that can be viewed as conjecture.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Is it conjecture that we see death?
Is it conjecture that we see the process the body goes through after death?
Is it conjecture that those with beliefs believe they have access to other information that negates those first 2 things?

I fail to see how that can be viewed as conjecture.

..no one said they had 'information'..it's the exact opposite..it's not always requiring 'information' are absolute proof of everything in this universe because it's far to complex to understand and explain everything in life...

[arista]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Well?

yes I was King
My Castle was well protected

[Livia]

Maybe you need to see someone you love die, and then feel them around you... not just imagine it, but feel sure in the knowledge, feel it in your heart. Maybe you have to experience that.

Anyway, my beliefs are my own, I feel no need to share them, and if no one else believes them, I could care less... but not much less.

[Kizzy]

'anyone positing about things that happen after death have all the arrogance'

'People who do this actually limit their window'

'the divine communicating with the most ignorant'

'I've never discounted it as a possibility,'

Out of all the statements you've made jesus I prefer the one in bold.

Originally Posted by Ammi

..no one said they had 'information'..it's the exact opposite..it's not always requiring 'information' are absolute proof of everything in this universe because it's far to complex to understand and explain everything in life...

But then that's really just magical thinking, Ammi. Whatever way you dress it up.

When someone makes a claim about what they had for lunch, or that they're going out with friends, I don't need proof, but if someone is making claims about what happens after death, then I sort of see that as a completely different thing. I'm not talking about people who are "open" to it, but those that actually believe it.

Whatever gets you through your day.

I feel this thread has sort of reached an impasse, and we'll all go round in circles from this point on. I suggest, that on the count of 3 that everybody retreats slowly and finds their nearest available exit.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

But then that's really just magical thinking, Ammi. Whatever way you dress it up.

When someone makes a claim about what they had for lunch, or that they're going out with friends, I don't need proof, but if someone is making claims about what happens after death, then I sort of see that as a completely different thing. I'm not talking about people who are "open" to it, but those that actually believe it.

Whatever gets you through your day.

I feel this thread has sort of reached an impasse, and we'll all go round in circles from this point on. I suggest, that on the count of 3 that everybody retreats slowly and finds their nearest available exit.

..no it's not 'magical'..that's extremely condescending and dismissive, I don't know whether you realise that though..I am not 'magical' at all...and it's very much not that different from not having to have 'proof' of other things because no one really knows what happens when we die..it's one of those things we can't come back and tell our story of...do I 'believe' that I'll somehow remain 'in spirit' when I die and watch over my children..?..no I don't but then I don't believe I definitely won't either because I really don't know and neither do you so my beliefs or whatever are no more or less 'magical' to yours...


..anyway, yes, I'm done with this thread....



..1 ..2..3...gone....

[Kizzy]

I'm not going anywhere, and am happy to discuss any view no matter how implausible.

[Jords]

I wonder who was a creep in their past lives!!

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe you need to see someone you love die, and then feel them around you... not just imagine it, but feel sure in the knowledge, feel it in your heart. Maybe you have to experience that.

Anyway, my beliefs are my own, I feel no need to share them, and if no one else believes them, I could care less... but not much less.

My father was the most straight laced person you could ever meet. Mention supernatural things to him and he would just scoff at you.

About twenty years ago now his mother died, on the night after the funeral we went home and he went to bed. To this very day he swears that he felt his mother sit on his bed whilst he was laying there.

We also had a baby die in the family not that long after. In my parents house they had a picture of the baby in a silver frame above the TV. On a regular basis the thing would go flying across the room whilst everyone was sitting there, as if someone had picked it up and thrown it.

[CaudleHalbard]

In terms of the universe we are, in Earth terms, like ants crawling around a tiny spherical rock

We are one planet circling an insignificant star in a universe of an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.

But we think we know it all don't we? Lol!

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe you need to see someone you love die, and then feel them around you... not just imagine it, but feel sure in the knowledge, feel it in your heart. Maybe you have to experience that.

Anyway, my beliefs are my own, I feel no need to share them, and if no one else believes them, I could care less... but not much less.

I've experienced that. Good post.

[Z]

My dad swears by this story that on the day of his father's funeral, a mouse ran out of the plot just before the coffin was buried, sat on the graveside for a good long moment staring at all of the gathered mourners and then ran away - and he said it felt like it was his dad. I've never really had anyone close to me pass away (yet) so I can't really comment either way, but I think especially if it comforts people then others should respect their right to hold that view. It's the same in any aspect of life - I don't like having the views of others forced upon me and I wouldn't do it to them.

[CaudleHalbard]

When we are consumed with grief it is easy to lose objectivity.

However there is no proof that consciousness goes out of existence or indeed comes into existence. For all we know it is a continuum.

Scientific research into reincarnation has been done by the late Prof Ian Stevenson and others. You can read about it here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research

[Livia]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

When we are consumed with grief it is easy to lose objectivity.

However there is no proof that consciousness goes out of existence or indeed comes into existence. For all we know it is a continuum.

Scientific research into reincarnation has been done by the late Prof Ian Stevenson and others. You can read about it here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research

Seriously. Wikipedia.

[CaudleHalbard]

Originally Posted by Livia

Seriously. Wikipedia.

Have a read of the article first before leaping to comment!

Wikipedia has been shown to be more accurate than the Encyclopaedia Britannica. One of the reasons why nobody bothers with Britannica now.

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

When we are consumed with grief it is easy to lose objectivity.

However there is no proof that consciousness goes out of existence or indeed comes into existence. For all we know it is a continuum.

Scientific research into reincarnation has been done by the late Prof Ian Stevenson and others. You can read about it here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research

I will quite happily concede that the experience I described above that my father had was down to exactly what you say. But the picture of the baby flying across the room, I saw with my own eyes, many times.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

Have a read of the article first before leaping to comment!

Wikipedia has been shown to be more accurate than the Encyclopaedia Britannica. One of the reasons why nobody bothers with Britannica now.

Yes, that's the reason no one bothers with Britannica now. Did you read that in Wikipedia?

[CaudleHalbard]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, that's the reason no one bothers with Britannica now. Did you read that in Wikipedia?

No.

Have you read the article?