[chuff me dizzy]

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Good for you. I wish I could be so sure, as this case wrecks my head completely.

It's not a case of being so sure, I think it's a case of not rushing to call people murderers on the basis of half lies, Chinese whispers, and the internet. I know you're not calling them murderers, you just like to continually point to things that raise doubts about their innocence.

If there was real evidence out there, the Portuguese police who seemed pretty keen on it being them at one point, would have made it happen by now. I'n not saying it couldn't possibly be them, but the moving parts involved in pulling something like this off, is certainly beyond most people.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

Really? How odd.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

It's not a case of being so sure, I think it's a case of not rushing to call people murderers on the basis of half lies, Chinese whispers, and the internet. I know you're not calling them murderers, you just like to continually point to things that raise doubts about their innocence.

If there was real evidence out there, the Portuguese police who seemed pretty keen on it being them at one point, would have made it happen by now. I'n not saying it couldn't possibly be them, but the moving parts involved in pulling something like this off, is certainly beyond most people.

I don't think they are murderers, not by a long stretch. I don't think anyone actually killed Madeleine that night. I don't even think Kate had anything to do with it, nor the other friends and I fully believe they were telling the truth with their statements (that add up). I just find the abduction story so hard to believe. Especially now that Jane Tanners view of the abductor (for 6 years) has been chucked out and it appears that the last person to see Maddie was Gerry.

ETA. Basically, I think that Madeleine had an accident in the apartment soon after her parents left. Gerry found her when he did his check. Panicked like **** knowing that they would be suspects. Hid the body somewhere close knowing the alarm would be raised before long (if they were checking every half hour) then used the panic and 'searching' to get rid of the body. I believe the smiths sighting was Gerry. Considering Martin Smith originally said he was 60-80% sure the man he saw was Gerry too....

Of course I could be way off the mark, but to me this makes more sense than the abduction/failed burglary lines

The reason the case keeps being brought up by them IMO, is because the mother believes her child was abducted and obviously the father can't tell her/anyone the truth.

[Brother Leon]

People really underestimating what it would take for them to have pulled this off. To have realised she died,disposed of the body, got back etc lord knows how long it may of took. Of course it may of happened earlier, but to dispose of a dead body in a place you are not completely familiar with no less without it reappearing after 7 years now and not one person spotting the suspicion(this would of been daylight and busy unless it happened alot longer before at like 5am) you either need to be incredibly lucky or some sort of criminal mastermind that had this planned for a while. I highly doubt they are any. They are **** parents who left the child vulnerable and once the guy saw the media hunt he probably panicked and killed her. I assume he would know what he was doing to pull it off or at least had someone telling him what to do that did.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

..hmm, it could be many reasons and not necessarily 'sinister' in any way...explicit texts/affair..?...anything really, but not related to Madeleine going missing .....maybe they just panicked about something else and their phones being looked at....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

People really underestimating what it would take for them to have pulled this off. To have realised she died,disposed of the body, got back etc lord knows how long it may of took. Of course it may of happened earlier, but to dispose of a dead body in a place you are not completely familiar with no less without it reappearing after 7 years now and not one person spotting the suspicion(this would of been daylight and busy unless it happened alot longer before at like 5am) you either need to be incredibly lucky or some sort of criminal mastermind that had this planned for a while. I highly doubt they are any. They are **** parents who left the child vulnerable and once the guy saw the media hunt he probably panicked and killed her. I assume he would know what he was doing to pull it off or at least had someone telling him what to do that did.

..yeah, exactly, Leon....

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..hmm, it could be many reasons and not necessarily 'sinister' in any way...explicit texts/affair..?...anything really, but not related to Madeleine going missing .....maybe they just panicked about something else and their phones being looked at....

I still think it's very odd.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I still think it's very odd.

...yeah I know what you mean but I don't think 'odd' necessarily means they know or did anything more than they say because either way...whichever way you look at it/whatever opinions anyone may have, it doesn't look any less 'odd' or consistent....and I really don't think we'll ever know...

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah I know what you mean but I don't think 'odd' necessarily means they know or did anything more than they say because either way...whichever way you look at it/whatever opinions anyone may have, it doesn't look any less 'odd' or consistent....and I really don't think we'll ever know...

It suggests they're hiding something.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

It suggests they're hiding something.

..hmm, but then what they're not hiding..their story..everything about it kind of points to people being suspicious and at the very least condemning them as 'bad parents' so that kind of doesn't make sense to me either Vanessa...that what they're hiding is sinister, if they were hiding anything at all...

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..hmm, but then what they're not hiding..their story..everything about it kind of points to people being suspicious and at the very least condemning them as 'bad parents' so that kind of doesn't make sense to me either Vanessa...that what they're hiding is sinister, if they were hiding anything at all...

I think it's possible they killed Maddie by accident. Maybe by giving her sleeping pills? Or she fell ?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think it ever will be. It seems fairly obvious that the Portuguese police know, or are fairly sure, of what happened to Maddie, that her parents know she is dead and disposed of her body. Buy there has been a massive effort to bury that conclusion by powerful figures, including the police chief losing his job, and being threatened with libel suits several times.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a hell of a lot of money and power is being pumped into the effort to NOT solve this case. Why? I really have no idea. At this point it could simply be because the implications of the truth being revealed are too wide-spread and "embarrassing" for both governments and for Scotland Yard.

Extreme theory though. As you say, there's no reason at all for the government to cover the murder/accidental death of one 3 year old and then spend millions to cover it up whilst at the same time allowing these high profile appeals to continue.

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I think she may have wondered off to look for her parents. It may explain why the window was open.

The windows were covered with those shutter things. I really doubt a 3 year old girl, who was apparently so tired from the day as well would have the strength to open the window, push up a shutter and clamber out.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The McCanns left at around 8.30. Gerry checked at around 9pm..apparently kids were all ok, he went to loo, had a chat with someone then went back to table (around 9.25). Oldfield checked kids at 9.30, but only saw twins, never thought to check Maddie was there. Quiet so assumed everything was fine. Kate checked kids at 10pm and realised Maddie was missing.

Gerry was only one to actually see Madeline between them leaving the apartment and Kate discovering she was gone.

That is suspicious, the only problem with something happening between those times that Gerry may be covering is the fact that they allowed a friend to check on them at 9.30 who they couldn't be sure wouldn't check to see Maddie in her bed. It would have been a stroke of luck that he just glanced at the twins and then walked out.

Originally Posted by Vanessa

Why are they so convinced Maddie was kidnapped? She may have wondered off by herself.

Because there's no sign of her? If she'd just wandered off, surely she'd have been found at some point, dead or alive. There'd have been sightings of a little girl strolling around at night.

[Vanessa]

This case is such a mystery. The more i think about it the more i'm confused.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Josy

No one here is saying that what they post is the truth, they are posting opinions on this topic that's all, if it's bothering you so much just don't enter the thread.

its not bothering me josy, keep it up!

[Z]

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away )

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away )

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

I think this is the most likely scenario.

[Vicky.]

IIRC the car wasn't hired until weeks after she disappeared.

But I think the rest sounds about right tbh.

I think it much more likely that the Smith sighting was Gerry personally. Would also explain why the McCanns have largely ignored that sighting, instead focusing on Jane Tanners bogeyman.

[Jamesy]

I think a government cover up is going too far. However a cover up of some sorts could be credible.

Perhaps with the heavy media initially surrounding the case and The McCanns shown as the victims the public reaction was quite phenomenal. May be it was discovered at some point, possibly by a senior team member that The McCanns had some involvement with the disappearance of their daughter, maybe even some form of evidence against them found. Said senior team member shows this to their boss. The boss realises just how big this is, how it could ruin the careers of the investigators and how much it would rip apart the media, said boss and senior team member ensure it stays covered up and would be impossible to link in with The McCanns.

Now this is jumping into the realms of what you would read in something like a Simon Kernick book (or just any crazy crime-thriller novel). It's alarming and unlikely, but quite possible. Certainly not off the record. But I don't know, that's a bit too 'crazy conspiracist' for my liking.

[Vicky.]

I do not believe the government/police coverup story at all.

Tbh I think the police are just as suspicious as some of the public are, but they know they need concrete evidence to make it stick. Last time the McCanns were named as possible suspects, they skipped the country (despite saying they wouldnt leave until MAddie was found)..maybe they don't want a repeat

Also, I have a hunch that the crimewatch thing was about getting more descriptions of the Smith sighting, as I'm sure the police haven't missed that the descriptions appear to match Gerry, nor will they be ignorant of the fact that Smith named Gerry specifically at one point too. I sincerely hope this CCTV footage is found that I have seen mentioned over the past few days.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Zee

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away )

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

[Z]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

That's true. Kids fall over all the time, especially three year olds. My nephew is the same age and tends to be quite clumsy.

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

The dog stuff is not as definitive as has been stated in this thread. If you go back a couple of pages MTVN posted a site exposing the myths about the conspiracy theorists. There is a good section on the dogs, what they actually do, and what actually happened.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Zee

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

Nah it doesn't mean it was her.

Which is why the dogs mean not too much on their own.