[arista]

At last UK get out.



The lowering of the Union Flag in Camp Bastion marks the end of Britain's 13-year campaign - the longest conflict in modern times.

http://news.sky.com/story/1359797/br...omes-to-an-end




Now Women
will go back to Dog levels, sadly.
And Taliban will take over.



Sign Of The Times

[joeysteele]

let's really hope that is the end to this and no prospect of any return.

[Livia]

Remembering the hundreds of troops who didn't live to see this day.

[Vicky.]

How the **** has it taken this long to get out?!

[T*]

Finally.

[Northern Monkey]

Yep,And the Taliban are still there and will go and take over again as if we were never there.We should finish the job or all those soldiers who died,Did so for nothing.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

How the **** has it taken this long to get out?!

They were doing a job there. There was a handover to complete, Afghan troops to train... there'd have been hell on if our troops had just downed tools and left.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Yep,And the Taliban are still there and will go and take over again as if we were never there.We should finish the job or all those soldiers who died,Did so for nothing.

NONE of those soldiers died for nothing and it upsets me when civilians sitting in the safety of their own home suggest they did.

[user104658]

A glorious day, to see us withdrawing from the country, leaving the Middle East a more civilised place than it was the day the first boots hit the sand. The campaign will be forever remembered as a glorious victory for not only democracy, but for security across the entire region, and never again will we have to deal with the terrorism or religious extremism that used to spawn there all those years ago. Those were dark times, but we fought back against it, with an iron fist, with shock and awe, and we pulled those wretched people out of the dark ages kicking and screaming and into the light of a better world. A happier, safer, more secure world, free from...

Oh, wait.

[James]

There is a two-part documentary on BBC 2 about it now.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A glorious day, to see us withdrawing from the country, leaving the Middle East a more civilised place than it was the day the first boots hit the sand. The campaign will be forever remembered as a glorious victory for not only democracy, but for security across the entire region, and never again will we have to deal with the terrorism or religious extremism that used to spawn there all those years ago. Those were dark times, but we fought back against it, with an iron fist, with shock and awe, and we pulled those wretched people out of the dark ages kicking and screaming and into the light of a better world. A happier, safer, more secure world, free from...

Oh, wait.

I don't think anyone ever imagined that being in Afghanistan would mean an end to terrorism across the world. There's nothing glorious about it. I doubt you'd find one soldier who's served there who would describe it as either glorious or a victory, and neither would any of us who lost someone.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

NONE of those soldiers died for nothing and it upsets me when civilians sitting in the safety of their own home suggest they did.

If the Taliban come back out of the mountains and retake power,then what a waste of so many British lives.Imo.If we commit to going in we should finish what we started and not leave it to be retaken and end up back where it started in a few years.
Those soldiers died fighting for a cause,Let's make it up to them as a country and make sure we don't have to go back.Imo.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't think anyone ever imagined that being in Afghanistan would mean an end to terrorism across the world. There's nothing glorious about it. I doubt you'd find one soldier who's served there who would describe it as either glorious or a victory, and neither would any of us who lost someone.

People in military service are not political decision makers though, they hand themselves over to those powers and they do their job and follow orders. There's a certain nobility in that, a selflessness and bravery that obviously should never be overlooked. Praise for the armed forces should be a given and should be a completely separate thing from debate over any specific conflict and the success (or in the case of the middle east, disaster) of those campaigns.

However, the fact that soldiers deserve praise, that their bravery and selflessness should be applauded, does not negate the fact that the people pulling the strings, safe in their ivory towers, make some terrible mistakes and when they do, they sometimes send those soldiers to sit striking matches under an unholy pile of dynamite.

The terrorist threat in the middle east isn't just "not gone", it's worse and more extreme than it ever was. The withdrawal of troops for Afghanistan will, within a few years, allow terrorist groups like ISIS (or whatever worse entity comes next) to take hold and the country will slide straight back to where it was a decade ago and keep on sliding. When that happens, the little men in their little suits will be back in their little room talking about air strikes and trying to figure out how long they can stall before breaking it to the public that the troops will be going back.

Western military intervention in the middle east has been an unyielding **** storm. This is not the fault of the soldiers. This doesn't lessen the sacrifices. The military didn't make mistakes. The politicians did and still are; It's the fault of ham-fisted puppet masters.

I might be wrong, Afghanistan might be able to get itself on track and become as close to a success story in the middle east as is possible, but I very much doubt it. There are dark times ahead for Afghanistan. Darker than there would have been had no British serviceman ever set foot there.

[arista]

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

People in military service are not political decision makers though, they hand themselves over to those powers and they do their job and follow orders. There's a certain nobility in that, a selflessness and bravery that obviously should never be overlooked. Praise for the armed forces should be a given and should be a completely separate thing from debate over any specific conflict and the success (or in the case of the middle east, disaster) of those campaigns.

However, the fact that soldiers deserve praise, that their bravery and selflessness should be applauded, does not negate the fact that the people pulling the strings, safe in their ivory towers, make some terrible mistakes and when they do, they sometimes send those soldiers to sit striking matches under an unholy pile of dynamite.

The terrorist threat in the middle east isn't just "not gone", it's worse and more extreme than it ever was. The withdrawal of troops for Afghanistan will, within a few years, allow terrorist groups like ISIS (or whatever worse entity comes next) to take hold and the country will slide straight back to where it was a decade ago and keep on sliding. When that happens, the little men in their little suits will be back in their little room talking about air strikes and trying to figure out how long they can stall before breaking it to the public that the troops will be going back.

Western military intervention in the middle east has been an unyielding **** storm. This is not the fault of the soldiers. This doesn't lessen the sacrifices. The military didn't make mistakes. The politicians did and still are; It's the fault of ham-fisted puppet masters.

I might be wrong, Afghanistan might be able to get itself on track and become as close to a success story in the middle east as is possible, but I very much doubt it. There are dark times ahead for Afghanistan. Darker than there would have been had no British serviceman ever set foot there.

I kind of agree with all that. Thing is, I'm far too close to this; it's too personal and emotional to me... so I am going to step away from this particular debate.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

If the Taliban come back out of the mountains and retake power,then what a waste of so many British lives.Imo.If we commit to going in we should finish what we started and not leave it to be retaken and end up back where it started in a few years.
Those soldiers died fighting for a cause,Let's make it up to them as a country and make sure we don't have to go back.Imo.

There's nothing to finish... or, rather, it can't be finished. The "war on terror" is the true third World War and it will be perpetual, or at least cyclical in an ever-worsening fashion, until we all lose. These conflicts needed to be "fought smarter" in the first place. It's too late now.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's nothing to finish... or, rather, it can't be finished. The "war on terror" is the true third World War and it will be perpetual, or at least cyclical in an ever-worsening fashion, until we all lose. These conflicts needed to be "fought smarter" in the first place. It's too late now.

At a guess.I would think that after Osama was taken out and after realising that the Taliban are actually unbeatable,The goal would've been to weaken them to such an extent that the Afghan forces can keep the villages,Towns and Cities from falling back under their control.I wonder if this objective was actually completed.The fact that the US and UK governments set themselves a deadline of 2014 to finish operations there and pull the majority of troops out makes me doubt that it was.I don't think that deadlines could be set for such a difficult task,It makes me think that we just decided to pull out no matter what the state of the Taliban is now.If they regain power,It seems like such a waste,Specially since OBL was actually killed in Pakistan by special forces and was there for god knows how long while our soldiers were trading blows with the Taliban in Afghan.

[bots]

No war is really won, particularly these days. The objective in going in to Afghanistan in the first place was to remove the terrorist training facilities that were openly operating there and reduce their capability to hit western targets. That has largely been achieved there, so no-one died in vain. The threat has evolved now so that Afghanistan is no longer the prime focus and resources are better deployed elsewhere. That to me is why it was easy to set a deadline to cease operations there and re-group ready for the next deployment.

[waterhog]

i am glad we are out of there as i think we were in there way to long and to many lives were lost. but i still think we was right to go.

its sad to say the repercussions will be there if we went or did not. we could not win.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Like many people in the UK, I have a problems with the politics, the ignorant terrorists but not with the soldiers who put their necks on the line for what ever reason

It may not have been a great reason here but next time it may be and they dont discriminate on our behalf

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't think anyone ever imagined that being in Afghanistan would mean an end to terrorism across the world. There's nothing glorious about it. I doubt you'd find one soldier who's served there who would describe it as either glorious or a victory, and neither would any of us who lost someone.

A great succinct post.

No delusions. No illusions. No solutions, just unavoidable futility.

[Nedusa]

I think we have to separate the Soldiering from the Political stupidity that put them there in the first place.

All the Military can do is what they're asked, they risk life and limb carrying out the orders of their Political paymasters. for right or wrong they always give 100% in blood sweat and toil, putting their lives on the line for their Country.

For this they deserve only our enduring praise and thanks, they are heroes and continue to be always, this is not, now , nor ever was in question.

My argument is with the politicians who use our Military as part of their grand Political game, gambling with the lives of hundreds of our servicemen to fight their ill conceived pointless stupid, dangerous, unjust wars which at best are unwinnable and at worst precipitate the most disasterous anarchy resulting in the loss of lives in the hundreds of thousands, and help to promote recruitment for multiple extremist terrorist groups.

One cannot help also thinking that these wars also have a profit motive and that the big Corporations and Arms manufacturers also gain.

This is what hurts the most in my view, to sit and watch countless lives being destroyed and thousands of families suffer the resulting heartbreak of losing loved ones just so a few greedy powerful people can see their stocks rise and their profits increase.

Disgusting to say the least.





.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I think we have to separate the Soldiering from the Political stupidity that put them there in the first place.

All the Military can do is what they're asked, they risk life and limb carrying out the orders of their Political paymasters. for right or wrong they always give 100% in blood sweat and toil, putting their lives on the line for their Country.

For this they deserve only our enduring praise and thanks, they are heroes and continue to be always, this is not, now , nor ever was in question.

My argument is with the politicians who use our Military as part of their grand Political game, gambling with the lives of hundreds of our servicemen to fight their ill conceived pointless stupid, dangerous, unjust wars which at best are unwinnable and at worst precipitate the most disasterous anarchy resulting in the loss of lives in the hundreds of thousands, and help to promote recruitment for multiple extremist terrorist groups.

One cannot help also thinking that these wars also have a profit motive and that the big Corporations and Arms manufacturers also gain.

This is what hurts the most in my view, to sit and watch countless lives being destroyed and thousands of families suffer the resulting heartbreak of losing loved ones just so a few greedy powerful people can see their stocks rise and their profits increase.

Disgusting to say the least.






.

I feel like this, however I would never want to detract from the valor shown by those who feel it's their calling to fight for the country. We honour and respect them, I don't feel our 'leaders' do however.