[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

With a minimum of 4 more years still to come of severe austerity cuts again at least.
Which were all supposed to be done with by 2014/5 on this lots 2010 policies.

Doesn't sound much like even just a fair recovery,never mind a good recovery to me either.

To be fair joey, Labour left the finances is a massive state, spending money they didn't have, borrowing more, and now they're demanding the Tories not only clear up their mess but they've put a time limit on it! Ridiculous really.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

To be fair joey, Labour left the finances is a massive state, spending money they didn't have, borrowing more, and now they're demanding the Tories not only clear up their mess but they've put a time limit on it! Ridiculous really.

To be fair,no matter what govt; had been in when the banking and financial crisis hit, not just the UK but most of the global financial world too,would have left some big problem to deal with after it.

I believe the Conservative party if in govt; in 2008,would have too bailed out the banks, the pressure from people with bank accounts would have been too great not to.
In fact, that crisis could have been worse that hit the UK, as the then Conservative opposition led by David Cameron wanted 'less' regulation of the banks,not 'more'.

Labour should have built up good reserve to fall back on I agree,however they presided over 11 years of unprecedented growth in the UK,between 1997 and 2007,with no hint of recession until this worldwide crisis hit.
No one foresaw it coming really either and certainly not on the scale it did.

The Conservative way to deal with recession is usually to allow unemployment to soar,(unemployment a price worth paying), that is likely the route they would have taken had they been in govt; in 2008 but I say again, I still think for sure they too would have had to invest in and bail,out the banks.

So Labour left a big financial mess to sort out,no argument at all there, the Conservatives however would have,I believe, left the UK with a massive human cost as to jobs lost and livelihoods shattered via unemployment to sort out, with then likely millions of people left on the unemployment scrapheap for 5 to 10 years or even more.


It was also the Conservative party in 2010,no one else, that said it would sort things out in 5 years and have the deficit cleared by 2015.
Labour planned to only halve the deficit over 4 years, making no major cuts in the first year after 2010 and making at least 20% less cuts.
They did have the UK out of recession and have growth in place of around 1% by the end of 2009 and early 2010.

It is only this govt; that set the target of having things cleared up by its savage and extreme austerity programme over the 5 years from 2010 to 2015.
Even the Lib Dems in 2010 were saying the deficit didn't need to be cleared in 5 years it could be done much more slowly over time.

It is David Cameron and George Osborne who set the time frame for success in sorting things out, no one else, and they have failed as they are only halfway there at best.
Now they are asking for the same time again, to do the same things, to achieve that same first target they set in 2010.

A Uni lecturer once said to us, there are no prizes for failure.
Well for me this govt; has failed and to say it intends to inflict even more cuts and austerity measures for at least another 4 years,with only at best half off the deficit, on an altered measuring of how the deficit is now calculated from how it was measured in 2010.
That amounts to me, not just failure but failure on a grand scale.

Having failed to realise their unfairly planned austerity measures have probably in part stifled success rather than really been instrumental in helping success.
The worst part was them not planning for the austerity measures failing by having a back up plan to counteract unnecessary and heartless effects on those most vulnerable.
That is something that to me is unforgivable,especialy when they are being told by endless support gorups and charities and organisations.

All govts; get things wrong, all the time, no matter their makeup.
However,punishing,trampling and scapegoating the weakest in any society is however the lowest of the low as to things to carry out.
For me it is anyway.

[Livia]

Great post as always joey. Don't agree with all of it though. Labour mismanaged money on a gargantuan scale and they do it every time they get in. Then the Tories get back in and make massive, unpopular cuts but manage to get the economy back on track so that by the time Labour get back in the coffers are full once again and Labour can spend it all again. I am very uncomfortable with a lot of the things the Tories have done in the last few years but that doesn't mean that Labour have suddenly started to get it right, because they haven't. And they won't. They need a new leader for a start in my opinion or they are doomed. But anyway, great post with good points as usual.

[Nedusa]

If the Country doesn't have the money , it doesn't have the money. No amount of fiddling around with the Budget is going to hide that fact. New Labour tried to increase immigration to increase productivity and try and grow the Country back into the black, the Tories have taken more of a austerity approach where they cut public services and reduced welfare spending and spending on the NHS.

Both approaches are flawed and hurt the very people who are expecting the quality of their lives to improve.

Nobody has really gotten to grips with the unpaid tax issue of Big Banks and Multi Nationals. There must be billions of unpaid tax owed to the treasury but the Tories are all in bed with these Companies and will not risk upsetting them.

Meanwhile another year and public borrowing continues unapaced forever increasing our national Debt to record levels.

The rich become richer and poor become poorer and the middle classes the tax payers are promised jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes.

bottom line we are not a wealthy Country and cannot afford to project ourselves as one.

We should as a nation should have a serious debate about our place in the world and question our spending on Trident and our massive outlay to the EU.

Meanwhile the immigration game has failed with the infrastructure and services of all our major cities hopelessly clogged up.

It's a mess and it's getting worse, and taking 1p off a pint of Beer is no real solution.

[Livia]

Got to agree with the majority of that Nedusa, except the bit about us not being a rich country. There's more than enough to go round, but those who have it don't want to part with it. Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything else.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

If the Country doesn't have the money , it doesn't have the money. No amount of fiddling around with the Budget is going to hide that fact. New Labour tried to increase immigration to increase productivity and try and grow the Country back into the black, the Tories have taken more of a austerity approach where they cut public services and reduced welfare spending and spending on the NHS.

Both approaches are flawed and hurt the very people who are expecting the quality of their lives to improve.

Nobody has really gotten to grips with the unpaid tax issue of Big Banks and Multi Nationals. There must be billions of unpaid tax owed to the treasury but the Tories are all in bed with these Companies and will not risk upsetting them.

Meanwhile another year and public borrowing continues unapaced forever increasing our national Debt to record levels.

The rich become richer and poor become poorer and the middle classes the tax payers are promised jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes.

bottom line we are not a wealthy Country and cannot afford to project ourselves as one.

We should as a nation should have a serious debate about our place in the world and question our spending on Trident and our massive outlay to the EU.

Meanwhile the immigration game has failed with the infrastructure and services of all our major cities hopelessly clogged up.

It's a mess and it's getting worse, and taking 1p off a pint of Beer is no real solution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-31944621


2% cut on whisky excise duty will free many Scots from poverty

I am intending to celebrate this fact at the weekend with some Teachers


( and by that I dont mean the ones who work for half a year and moan about it for the other half)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

To be fair,no matter what govt; had been in when the banking and financial crisis hit, not just the UK but most of the global financial world too,would have left some big problem to deal with after it.

I believe the Conservative party if in govt; in 2008,would have too bailed out the banks, the pressure from people with bank accounts would have been too great not to.
In fact, that crisis could have been worse that hit the UK, as the then Conservative opposition led by David Cameron wanted 'less' regulation of the banks,not 'more'.

Labour should have built up good reserve to fall back on I agree,however they presided over 11 years of unprecedented growth in the UK,between 1997 and 2007,with no hint of recession until this worldwide crisis hit.
No one foresaw it coming really either and certainly not on the scale it did.

The Conservative way to deal with recession is usually to allow unemployment to soar,(unemployment a price worth paying), that is likely the route they would have taken had they been in govt; in 2008 but I say again, I still think for sure they too would have had to invest in and bail,out the banks.

So Labour left a big financial mess to sort out,no argument at all there, the Conservatives however would have,I believe, left the UK with a massive human cost as to jobs lost and livelihoods shattered via unemployment to sort out, with then likely millions of people left on the unemployment scrapheap for 5 to 10 years or even more.


It was also the Conservative party in 2010,no one else, that said it would sort things out in 5 years and have the deficit cleared by 2015.
Labour planned to only halve the deficit over 4 years, making no major cuts in the first year after 2010 and making at least 20% less cuts.
They did have the UK out of recession and have growth in place of around 1% by the end of 2009 and early 2010.

It is only this govt; that set the target of having things cleared up by its savage and extreme austerity programme over the 5 years from 2010 to 2015.
Even the Lib Dems in 2010 were saying the deficit didn't need to be cleared in 5 years it could be done much more slowly over time.

It is David Cameron and George Osborne who set the time frame for success in sorting things out, no one else, and they have failed as they are only halfway there at best.
Now they are asking for the same time again, to do the same things, to achieve that same first target they set in 2010.

A Uni lecturer once said to us, there are no prizes for failure.
Well for me this govt; has failed and to say it intends to inflict even more cuts and austerity measures for at least another 4 years,with only at best half off the deficit, on an altered measuring of how the deficit is now calculated from how it was measured in 2010.
That amounts to me, not just failure but failure on a grand scale.

Having failed to realise their unfairly planned austerity measures have probably in part stifled success rather than really been instrumental in helping success.
The worst part was them not planning for the austerity measures failing by having a back up plan to counteract unnecessary and heartless effects on those most vulnerable.
That is something that to me is unforgivable,especialy when they are being told by endless support gorups and charities and organisations.

All govts; get things wrong, all the time, no matter their makeup.
However,punishing,trampling and scapegoating the weakest in any society is however the lowest of the low as to things to carry out.
For me it is anyway.

Fantastic post joey! How much have the welfare reforms actually saved, that would be interesting to know, I wonder if it's as much as IDS has spent?

"The Department for Work and Pensions has spent Ł700 million on Universal Credit since the programme began in 2010. However, very little progress has been achieved on the front line. Fewer than 18,000 people were claiming Universal Credit by October 2014, out of around seven million expected in the longer term – just 0.3% of the eligible population.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/co...ogress-update/

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Fantastic post joey! How much have the welfare reforms actually saved, that would be interesting to know, I wonder if it's as much as IDS has spent?

"The Department for Work and Pensions has spent Ł700 million on Universal Credit since the programme began in 2010. However, very little progress has been achieved on the front line. Fewer than 18,000 people were claiming Universal Credit by October 2014, out of around seven million expected in the longer term – just 0.3% of the eligible population.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/co...ogress-update/

Firstly thank you Livia, for your comments as to my post above,(sorry it was so long), well one of them anyway
I love how we can be on different sides yet hold massive respect for the others view without any sarcasm and unnecessary tit for tat.
You know too I hope, that although I don't agree with you as to the Conservatives now, I do respect your views and I also can take a lot on board that you say too.
So thank you again.

Now Kizzy, I have little doubt the welfare reforms are costing way more than anything saved.
I really also, unless they were even more heartless and stupid enough to do so,believe that it will stay that way unless they actually slashed benefit entitlements.
If they are not going to remove from the more well off pensioners for example,the winter fuel allowance and other extra benefits, then they will have to hit those relying on benefits.
They cannot possibly reduce the welfare bill any other way as pensions and the extra's to that, make up the greater bill for welfare anyway.

So I cannot see where the reforms are ever going to bring in anything worthwhile at all.

I also don't like the idea of Universal credit either, it is costing way too much too,it is behind schedule despite what Ian Duncan Smith would tell us, in most places it is operating only for new claimants.
There is the massive backlog of existing claimants, and all that will cost, to get through yet.

I hate its proposal that those claiming it will be paid every 4 weeks.these are benefits for goodness sake, not actual wages.
I also disagree strongly with for those on housing benefit and cpuncil tax rebate, that it will be paid directly to the claimant and not to the local authority or landlord.
That is going to cause really big problems in my view.

The old system, in my view, from what I have come across, just needed tightening up, not having payments of different benefits all paid on different days of the week.
Universal credit will do that but claimanats should have the option of being paid weekly, fortnightly or monthly, not have it forced on them.
In my recent work, I came across someone who got pension credit on a monday,their ESA on a thursday and their DLA paid monthly on a Wednesday.
Crazy,absolutely crazy.

These are badly thought out welfare reforms, that have caused massive confusion and distress to claimants.
Saving very little, in relation to the welfare bill overall in the long run but costing near the earth to do.
You are right to point out the slow progress of Universal credit, which means even more delays and problems due the ime involved in setting it up for people actually in need.

This is an area of funding that even Margaret Thatcher pulled back from, as to changing it too much.
After seeing the chaos from Ian Duncan Smith's reforms, it is easy to see why she largely left it be too.
Take in the costs too of those who have had their benefit cut or stopped altogether, who have then had to wait almost up to a year at times to get it sorted in court,with the ruling then that the cut or stopping them was wrong.
All the costs of putting that right must eat further into anything saved as benefits.

I also for the life of me, cannot see why we have to pay multi millions to an American company to re-assess our claimants,in order to in effect likely save a pittance as opposed to what it will all cost to do.
Far better take on more jobcentre staff and move more experienced staff up to do such re-assessments for the DWP.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

If the Country doesn't have the money , it doesn't have the money. No amount of fiddling around with the Budget is going to hide that fact. New Labour tried to increase immigration to increase productivity and try and grow the Country back into the black, the Tories have taken more of a austerity approach where they cut public services and reduced welfare spending and spending on the NHS.

Both approaches are flawed and hurt the very people who are expecting the quality of their lives to improve.

Nobody has really gotten to grips with the unpaid tax issue of Big Banks and Multi Nationals. There must be billions of unpaid tax owed to the treasury but the Tories are all in bed with these Companies and will not risk upsetting them.

Meanwhile another year and public borrowing continues unapaced forever increasing our national Debt to record levels.

The rich become richer and poor become poorer and the middle classes the tax payers are promised jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes.

bottom line we are not a wealthy Country and cannot afford to project ourselves as one.

We should as a nation should have a serious debate about our place in the world and question our spending on Trident and our massive outlay to the EU.

Meanwhile the immigration game has failed with the infrastructure and services of all our major cities hopelessly clogged up.

It's a mess and it's getting worse, and taking 1p off a pint of Beer is no real solution.

First class post.
However I support Trident and also being in the EU,although I think all govt;s should autmatically always be negotiating for better terms from the EU.

The banking sector is largely responsible for the ills we find the UK has now and for me they have still got off very lightly under this govt:

There has been a lot of 'lip service' from David Cameron and co as to the banks but liitle in the way of serious action.
You made a realy strong point as to that Nedusa, well said.

The 1p off a pint of beer and other alcohol, is unbelievable,when the NHS is flooded with having to cope with peoplel with alcohol related serious health conditions.
Making things cheaper will only help make that far worse and drain the NHS further in my view.

[joeysteele]

Anyway back to the budget,now today we have had Danny Alexander in the commons setting out in part a different Lib Dem way rather than what the Chancellor announced yesterday.

This was supposed to be a 'coalition' budget wasn't it? Surely that is a little out of order for a govt; Minister to have tried to do that in the debate in the commons.
I know it is a long time since the Lib Dems had any power in the UK but surely he has to stand behind this budget and its contents as presented yesterday, since he is part of the Ministerial team that actually produced it.

[Kizzy]

All these private overseas companies are the key as it will be impossible to trace who they have involvements with, and I would bet that the elite in our government are well in there creaming offshore their share.
They don't care, they want the old, ill, disabled and mentally incapable to just die...
There's plenty of others to take their place when they shuffle off, there is no such thing as society.
Soon there will be no welfare state and it will be every man for himself once again, and the last 100yrs will have gone full circle as we are dangerously close to many many people living as they would during the depression.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

All these private overseas companies are the key as it will be impossible to trace who they have involvements with, and I would bet that the elite in our government are well in there creaming offshore their share.
They don't care, they want the old, ill, disabled and mentally incapable to just die...
There's plenty of others to take their place when they shuffle off, there is no such thing as society.
Soon there will be no welfare state and it will be every man for himself once again, and the last 100yrs will have gone full circle as we are dangerously close to many many people living as they would during the depression.

A dark picture indeed there Kizzy but I think near the truth as well.

The rhetoric as to the most vulnerable, as to scapegoating and demonising them, has never been allowed to get as bad as it has under this coalition govt; who also have in fact fuelled that demonisation of them too a fair amount of the time.

[the truth]

VAT is the single biggest hole in the tory lies. Thatcher doubled it and the tories again here raised it 5%.......this vile tax is a tax on the poor, it has no effect on the rich at all and keeps all small businesses small

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

VAT is the single biggest hole in the tory lies. Thatcher doubled it and the tories again here raised it 5%.......this vile tax is a tax on the poor, it has no effect on the rich at all and keeps all small businesses small

I personally have no problem with VAT raises within reason SO LONG AS, hand in hand with that, essentials are exempt. Food, basic clothing, household products etc... They could also introduce things like tax breaks on economical, reasonably priced cars that wouldn't apply to the top end vehicles.

Basically a tax on luxury items. It then scales quite well with income. You have more money for non essentials, you spend more money, you pay more tax.

I'm not even saying this selfishly - I spend a quite obscene amount per year on "techy ****" like TVs, phones, tablets, laptops, computer components and parts, games consoles, games... And I genuinely wouldn't mind that much if an extra 5% was whacked on all of the above, so long as everyday items are left out of the equation.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

All these private overseas companies are the key as it will be impossible to trace who they have involvements with, and I would bet that the elite in our government are well in there creaming offshore their share.
They don't care, they want the old, ill, disabled and mentally incapable to just die...
There's plenty of others to take their place when they shuffle off, there is no such thing as society.
Soon there will be no welfare state and it will be every man for himself once again, and the last 100yrs will have gone full circle as we are dangerously close to many many people living as they would during the depression.

The thing is, they can't afford to dismantle the welfare state without forcing their buddy private companies to dramatically increase wages. A huge chunk of the welfare state is in-work top ups paid to families in employment, and they are essential. If you remove them, you remove vast swathes of people from the consumer economy - they won't have any money to buy all of the frivolous tat that keeps the capitalist world ticking. And they won't be available as a low-priced workforce. The government knows this. That is why they repeatedly and viciously target the unemployed and the disabled. They are worth far less to the "system". And that's why it's pointless because the vast majority of benefits are in work benefits and pensions.

[Kizzy]

Then where will the 12 billion welfare savings come from? That's the 12 billion dollar question...



Mr Osborne has said he would find the vast bulk of the savings by cutting welfare spending by Ł12 billion and clamping down on tax avoidance.
But the head of the influential think tank the Institute for Fiscal Studies said he had failed to set out his plans in sufficient detail.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10118830.html

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I personally have no problem with VAT raises within reason SO LONG AS, hand in hand with that, essentials are exempt. Food, basic clothing, household products etc... They could also introduce things like tax breaks on economical, reasonably priced cars that wouldn't apply to the top end vehicles.

Basically a tax on luxury items. It then scales quite well with income. You have more money for non essentials, you spend more money, you pay more tax.

I'm not even saying this selfishly - I spend a quite obscene amount per year on "techy ****" like TVs, phones, tablets, laptops, computer components and parts, games consoles, games... And I genuinely wouldn't mind that much if an extra 5% was whacked on all of the above, so long as everyday items are left out of the equation.

I'd vote for that.

[Kizzy]

The VAT increase the tories brought in as soon as they came into power from 17.5% to 20% meant straight away an extra Ł33 on food bills, where you pay it for 'non essentials' and yet VAT is on mobility aids for the elderly and sanitary products but not the lottery, betting or bingo.
Guess what else it's not on now?...

'Government outsourcing is expected to increase after the coalition removed VAT charges for private sector bidders on public sector contracts'

That's good on two counts, they can sell off more of the NHS and there will be less of a paper trail back to them so we'll be less likely to find out they're directly profiting from it.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/274999e0-c...#axzz3UvwtmVRh

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Great post as always joey. Don't agree with all of it though. Labour mismanaged money on a gargantuan scale and they do it every time they get in. Then the Tories get back in and make massive, unpopular cuts but manage to get the economy back on track so that by the time Labour get back in the coffers are full once again and Labour can spend it all again. I am very uncomfortable with a lot of the things the Tories have done in the last few years but that doesn't mean that Labour have suddenly started to get it right, because they haven't. And they won't. They need a new leader for a start in my opinion or they are doomed. But anyway, great post with good points as usual.

100% agree with this Livia,Conservatives will always get more flack as they are the ones that have to be cruel to be kind.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

100% agree with this Livia,Conservatives will always get more flack as they are the ones that have to be cruel to be kind.

Nothing wrong at all at times in having to be cruel to be kind. however just being cruel is a very different thing altogether.

I have seen absolute devastation to people lives who have cancer and other serious illneses, are severely disabled, even who are incurably and terminally ill.
Having benefits cut or stopped altogether due to heartlessly cruel welfare reforms,which have not an ounce of kindness attached or as the final oucome to the reforms either.
People so ill, they have had to end up in court with a legal team to help win back what was taken wrongly off them.
That is not being cruel to be kind, that is being plain cruel only.

If you would think that is acceptable then fine.That has to be your choice and I fully rspect that,however I say again, it is 'just' being cruel, not being cruel to be kind.
For me, I believe whenever there is a need to be 'cruel to be kind' that one thing that must always be ensured, is that the most vulnerable that even just could, never mind would, be affected by any decisions, are fully isolated and protected from unjust and too severe results from such policies.

Now Ian Duncan Smith and this govt; have been told week after week, year after year of how the reforms to welfare are hitting hardest those in genuine need the worst.
No matter who tells them, the medical professions, charities who are trying to pick up the pieces of the chaos caused, welfare groups and the CAB too.
All dismissed with total arrogance.

That isn't being cruel to be kind, that is wilful vindictiveness against the weakest in society.
You know this lot would bring fox hunting with dogs back, odd mentality to even want to do that but then I look at the policies of this govt and realise likely many people really genuinely ill, some with limited time, feel like they are being hunted too by this govt,the heartless policies being the pack mentality,no compassion for the distress caused meantime and no compassion at the end too.

On paper, I should have actually been a Conservative voter, for my sins I nearly was in 2010 as I almost believed David Cameron when he said there would be no top down re-organisation of the NHS.

He blatantly lied as to that and seeing the devastation he and this govt; have brought to innocent, poor and genuinely sick and disabled peoples lives leaves me feeling content, I didn't trust him.

I don't believe in rewards for failure, injustice and blatant lies,3 things this govt; are riddled with and I will despair if these get the chance to cut yet another 12 billion pound off the welfare budget after seeing how they chose to do so over the last 5 years.
They have said they are not going to do so by touching pensioners and the related extra entitlements all pensioners get, so that only leave the jobless and sick and disabled left.

I see not a single flash of anything in the way of compassion or compromise as to the policies on welfare reform,nothing at all.
They have already gone way too far in my view,and now it appears need to go even further to make up cuts they need to cover this budget they have just presented.

Really, it is a massive case of all powers that be, to help the poorest, weakest, most vulnerable,sick, disabled including those incurably or terminally ill, if they have to suffer more cuts the way they have these last 5 years under this govt:

It may well be in May that this heartless shower,hold most of the votes they got in 2010, however thankfully that was nowhere near enough to win them the election outright and I hope that is the case again.

Since for me,despite supporting the coalition at the start in 2010/11, all I have come across in my time at Uni and in my work afterwards has filled me with dismay at how they can be so cruel, with not an ounce of any kindness whatsover included in the policy making or as the end result.

It is votes like mine they need to win and also get others back too to win outright.
When the Conservatives have a leader that is fair and just, will show compassion to the weakest and most vulnerable in UK society again,and also not tell blatant lies as he did on the NHS,then one day I may consider looking at them again.
I could have never predicted or even thought possible in 2010, that any govt; elected in the UK could actually be so cruel to the weakest and most vulnerable.
It will stun me and leave me massively disillusioned as to politics if voters reward this PM and this govt for doing so.
Talk about kicking dogs when they are down, that is exactly how this govt; has treated the most vulnerable and I have seen it and been happy to try to help pick up the pieces as best I can for more than several peoples lives when possible.

[Kizzy]

Yeah kaz..... wot he said!