[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

If you vote UKip you get 3 years good luck. No other party can deliver that beauty.

I'm voting UKIP because although Farage MIGHT be lying, that's not an absolute, but with the others they are all PROVEN liars.

Call me racist if you like but I'm the son of immigrants (one anyway).
Call me colour prejudiced if you like but I'm a lovely shade of brown.

Call me a fool if you like for believing Farage, but I have voted in many elections for Labour and the Tories and been PROVED a fool as they both got power and both reneged on pre-election promises and left the country in a worse state than it was before.

I will give Nige a chance, and if it transpires after the election results that he has no chance, then I will be content to think of my vote as a 'protest vote' against Labour and the Tories, and whichever one does get elected, my conscience will be clear when they feck up yet again, because I will not have voted for them.

Me call that Win Win.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm voting UKIP because although Farage MIGHT be lying, that's not an absolute, but with the others they are all PROVEN liars.

Call me racist if you like but I'm the son of immigrants (one anyway).
Call me colour prejudiced if you like but I'm a lovely shade of brown.

Call me a fool if you like for believing Farage, but I have voted in many elections for Labour and the Tories and been PROVED a fool as they both got power and both reneged on pre-election promises and left the country in a worse state than it was before.

I will give Nige a chance, and if it transpires after the election results that he has no chance, then I will be content to think of my vote as a 'protest vote' against Labour and the Tories, and whichever one does get elected, my conscience will be clear when they feck up yet again, because I will not have voted for them.

Me call that Win Win.

So you would have preferred if your immigrant parent was turned away at Customs Kirk?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So you would have preferred if your immigrant parent was turned away at Customs Kirk?

yes if he or she was bringing nothing to the country and was just here for a free ride

we have enough layabouts that are homegrown

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes if he or she was bringing nothing to the country and was just here for a free ride

we have enough layabouts that are homegrown

I'm assuming that is not the case though and also Kirk's parent went on to contribute Kirk to the nation who is in turn hard working etc etc

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes if he or she was bringing nothing to the country and was just here for a free ride

we have enough layabouts that are homegrown

"And sometimes the Jester made it plain,
That his mirth merely masked a superior brain.
For those who doubt that this is true...
Laugh loud, for the joke be now on YOU"

Taken from "LeatherTrumpet - The Man Behind The Mask" Volume 1. by Kirk Lancaster, with a Foreword by Nigel Farage. Available from W.H.Smith, Doubleday, and all good bookshops, or online through 'Tibb Books Ltd.' RRP 20.00 English Pounds (No Cheques from Foreigners )

Actually LT - I could not have put it better myself - Thank you.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So you would have preferred if your immigrant parent was turned away at Customs Kirk?

Cherie my love - I wish to make a few things clear.

When I speak of the 'indigenous' people of this country in my posts, I am referring to the composite people living here now who are chiefly the result of over a thousand years or more of continued intermixing and breeding between many diverse cultures, races, religions and ethnicities - from the ancient Picts, Celts, Romans (from many different countries of the Roman Empire) Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans etc to more modern day immigrants such as Jamaicans, Asians, Eastern Europeans etc.etc. There is NO such thing as pure English or pure British.

When I oppose our current 'Open Door' policy on immigration, it is not through any 'racist' motive - but Economic and National Security ones, though I will not go into either here, because I have previously written other lengthy posts on both, and this is not the thread to expound such topics.

My father worked all his life down the coal mines apart from 12 years during which he served in the British Army including the entire Second World War fighting overseas - which is when he met and married my mother.

My mother came to this country as the wife of a serving soldier - a genuine marriage far removed from the highly orchestrated 'fake' marriages so prevalent now among immigrants as a way of illegally entering this country - and she came here highly educated, highly qualified, and conversant in the English language.

She worked three jobs for most of her life, yet lived in a state of poverty far lower than she had ever known in her own country before it was ravaged by war, but she never complained and remained to her dying day eternally grateful to this country for welcoming her in and FIERCELY patriotic to it. Not for her, the anti-British bile and incitements to violence spewed by certain of today's treacherous immigrants who despise this country which has embraced them and who have nothing but contempt for the 'indigenous' population whose taxes sustain them. Not for her the desire to tear down the fabric of her host country or the goal of destroying that country and replacing its culture and traditions and religion with those of her native country. Not for her the usurpation of the 'indigenous' people of Britain.

No - she was an immigrant who was grateful to be here. An immigrant who LOVED this country and its people, its culture, its traditions, its hard fought for DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS. She was an immigrant who WORKED hard, who CONTRIBUTED. Who retained her own native and ethnic identity whilst lovingly becoming as BRITISH as it was possible to become.

(Both she and my father were also staunch Socialists for all their lives - but no parents are perfect.)

Anyway, my mother came here at a time when the vessel which is the UK was filling up, due to; refugees, immigration, an upsurge in the birth rate, an increase in longevity due to better education, sanitation, health care and slowly improving living standards etc, but there was STILL, 'Room For All'.

This alas, is no longer the case; the 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

This island is Overpopulated. We are in the midst of the greatest Housing Crisis ever. Our NHS is in its death throes. Our Social Security and Benefits system is virtually bankrupt. Our Police service is underfunded, undermanned and becoming more impotent daily. Our Prisons are overcrowded ticking time bombs. Our other services are in crisis. Our Military Services are being systematically decimated.

The 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

There are no SANE arguments to allow this situation to continue and it is time to not only 'CALL A HALT', but also time for a UK Government to honestly address these very real, very grave, potentially FATAL problems and STOP BETRAYING THE 'INDIGENOUS' BRITISH PEOPLE.

Yes - Uncontrolled Immigration is but ONE of the many causal problems behind the UK's decline - but it IS a MAJOR causal problem nontheless and URGENTLY needs confronting.

And yes - If my mother was an applicant immigrant now (not the genuine wife of a serving British soldier back then) and I was some detached observer, I would 1,000% endorse her application being scrutinised and measured by the criterion of 'What can she offer this country' NOT 'What can this country offer her'.

If the answer is 'not much' then I would also endorse her application being refused - as draconian as some 'bleeding hearts' may view that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Cherie my love - I wish to make a few things clear.

When I speak of the 'indigenous' people of this country in my posts, I am referring to the composite people living here now who are chiefly the result of over a thousand years or more of continued intermixing and breeding between many diverse cultures, races, religions and ethnicities - from the ancient Picts, Celts, Romans (from many different countries of the Roman Empire) Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans etc to more modern day immigrants such as Jamaicans, Asians, Eastern Europeans etc.etc. There is NO such thing as pure English or pure British.

When I oppose our current 'Open Door' policy on immigration, it is not through any 'racist' motive - but Economic and National Security ones, though I will not go into either here, because I have previously written other lengthy posts on both, and this is not the thread to expound such topics.

My father worked all his life down the coal mines apart from 12 years during which he served in the British Army including the entire Second World War fighting overseas - which is when he met and married my mother.

My mother came to this country as the wife of a serving soldier - a genuine marriage far removed from the highly orchestrated 'fake' marriages so prevalent now among immigrants as a way of illegally entering this country - and she came here highly educated, highly qualified, and conversant in the English language.

She worked three jobs for most of her life, yet lived in a state of poverty far lower than she had ever known in her own country before it was ravaged by war, but she never complained and remained to her dying day eternally grateful to this country for welcoming her in and FIERCELY patriotic to it. Not for her, the anti-British bile and incitements to violence spewed by certain of today's treacherous immigrants who despise this country which has embraced them and who have nothing but contempt for the 'indigenous' population whose taxes sustain them. Not for her the desire to tear down the fabric of her host country or the goal of destroying that country and replacing its culture and traditions and religion with those of her native country. Not for her the usurpation of the 'indigenous' people of Britain.

No - she was an immigrant who was grateful to be here. An immigrant who LOVED this country and its people, its culture, its traditions, its hard fought for DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS. She was an immigrant who WORKED hard, who CONTRIBUTED. Who retained her own native and ethnic identity whilst lovingly becoming as BRITISH as it was possible to become.

(Both she and my father were also staunch Socialists for all their lives - but no parents are perfect.)

Anyway, my mother came here at a time when the vessel which is the UK was filling up, due to; refugees, immigration, an upsurge in the birth rate, an increase in longevity due to better education, sanitation, health care and slowly improving living standards etc, but there was STILL, 'Room For All'.

This alas, is no longer the case; the 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

This island is Overpopulated. We are in the midst of the greatest Housing Crisis ever. Our NHS is in its death throes. Our Social Security and Benefits system is virtually bankrupt. Our Police service is underfunded, undermanned and becoming more impotent daily. Our Prisons are overcrowded ticking time bombs. Our other services are in crisis. Our Military Services are being systematically decimated.

The 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

There are no SANE arguments to allow this situation to continue and it is time to not only 'CALL A HALT', but also time for a UK Government to honestly address these very real, very grave, potentially FATAL problems and STOP BETRAYING THE 'INDIGENOUS' BRITISH PEOPLE.

Yes - Uncontrolled Immigration is but ONE of the many causal problems behind the UK's decline - but it IS a MAJOR causal problem nontheless and URGENTLY needs confronting.

And yes - If my mother was an applicant immigrant now (not the genuine wife of a serving British soldier back then) and I was some detached observer, I would 1,000% endorse her application being scrutinised and measured by the criterion of 'What can she offer this country' NOT 'What can this country offer her'.

If the answer is 'not much' then I would also endorse her application being refused - as draconian as some 'bleeding hearts' may view that.

I'm sorry but that's rubbish we are not in anyway full to brimming.

Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.
Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.
In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.
Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.
Their conclusion? In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on is…
… 2.27%.
Yes. According to the most detailed analysis ever conducted, almost 98% of England is, in their word, natural.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm sorry but that's rubbish we are not in anyway full to brimming.

Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.
Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.
In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.
Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.
Their conclusion? In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on is…
… 2.27%.
Yes. According to the most detailed analysis ever conducted, almost 98% of England is, in their word, natural.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

No.... I'm sorry your reply is complete and utter nonsense, Kirk's post is about as accurate and truthful as it's possible to be.

I don't know where you live but I suspect it's not in the real World.

Our Urban areas are full , I live in London and have to suffer an ever diminishing quality of life primarily due to the huge numbers of people now living in the same small crowded space. More people more cars more pollution more demand on services.

This is FACT.....

You cannot argue against this ( much as you like to argue black is white)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

No.... I'm sorry your reply is complete and utter nonsense, Kirk's post is about as accurate and truthful as it's possible to be.

I don't know where you live but I suspect it's not in the real World.

Our Urban areas are full , I live in London and have to suffer an ever diminishing quality of life primarily due to the huge numbers of people now living in the same small crowded space. More people more cars more pollution more demand on services.

This is FACT.....

You cannot argue against this ( much as you like to argue black is white)

My reply was fact the statement was'' the 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming''

My issue wasn't with how overpopulated urban areas are, simply that is factually incorrect to suggest that the UK is full. You can dislike what I say or argue with facts back to the contrary but that doesn't alter the fact that the UK is by no means full.

Spoiler:

London is being cleansed and the undesirables shunted further north, that should make it easier to move around in London surely?
Unless the unscrupulous landlords who can rent out 1 room to 9 people are creating pockets of abject poverty and social degradation? Modern day slums; still... that can simply be ignored.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm sorry but that's rubbish we are not in anyway full to brimming.

Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.
Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.
In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.
Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.
Their conclusion? In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on is…
… 2.27%.
Yes. According to the most detailed analysis ever conducted, almost 98% of England is, in their word, natural.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

I'm sorry too Kizzy, because it is your post which is rubbish and not mine. I stated that 'the UK was full to overbrimming and that there is no more room for all' meaning for any more immigrants en masse as well as unrestrained breeding by people already living here. I expounded by stating (among other things) that 'This island is Overpopulated' and that 'We are in the midst of the greatest Housing Crisis ever.'

In order to prove me wrong, you use a link to a report to rebut what I contend in my post, yet that report has absolutely NO connection at all with 'habitable' land and was NOT designed or intended to support any case that the UK is NOT overpopulated, so as corroboration of your rebuttal, the report is irrelevant and not fit for purpose.

If the said report is read and accepted in the context of its ecological purpose, it is informative and only mildly erroneous, but if it is 'hijacked' then presented as corroborating evidence by those seeking to prove that the UK has lots of room for habitation purposes, then the unfortunate authors of the report are not the only ones who become 'laughing stocks'.

Let's start with the report's statistics:

Total UK Population: 64.3 million (Give or take a few hundred thousand 'illegals' which the government won't admit to.)

Total Land Area: 242,900 km²

And according to you, there is only 2.27% of The Total Land Area of the UK which is 'Not Natural' or 'Built Upon'.

This means that the TOTAL POPULATION of the UK - 64 Million people (rounded down) - are LIVING on that 2.27% of 'Built Upon' Land.

Now, I am no Mathematician, and I'm unusually tired - having only had 2 hours sleep last night - but let's do the Maths:

252,900 km² Total Land Area X 2.27% of 'Built Upon Land' = 5,513.83 km² .

So 64 Million people are living on 5,513.83 km² of land.
Which means that according to YOUR figures as per the report you cite as evidence; there are; 11,607 people LIVING in every square kilometre of that 'Built Upon' land in the UK.

That is one UNBELIEVABLE Population Density Statistic - especially when compared with the real figure of 765 people per square km according to the Office of National Statistics.

Now I am claiming that the UK is overpopulated and you refute that but if your 'evidence' is taken at face value - YOU EMPHATICALLY PROVE MY CONTENTION. Thank you.

The report is also totally ridiculous in other ways in the context of corroborating that the UK has 'lots of room' for immigrants - but then again - that was not the reason for the report. The authors do NOT claim that 97.73% of the UK is 'Natural' therefore available to build upon - YOU DO . But you are WRONG because it is NOT available.

'Unbuilt Upon Land' does not mean 'Available For Building Upon Land' - only in your post - because the erroneous 97.73% of 'Natural' Land referred to in the report ALREADY HAS OWNERS, and in addition great tracts of it are UNSUITABLE for building upon.

Now, I know that the government could 'Compulsory Purchase' such land from its rightful legal owners, (if the money was available to do so - which it isn't) and I know that they could build millions of new homes on some of this 'stolen' land (if the money was available to do so - which it isn't) and I know that we British are one of the most passive, charitable, and easy-going of people, but believe me, there would be the biggest revolution in the UK's history if such tactics were attempted - not to mention the greatest amount of litigation ever witnessed.

What's more, if we actually analyse this mythical 97.73 % of 'Natural' land, we will see that it includes:

1)Roads, car parks, railways, paths, airport runways and so on, but people cannot BUILD HOUSES or LIVE on these 'covered over' areas, so when their total Land Area is deducted from that 2.27% the Population Density figure becomes even MORE incredible because 64 million are now - supposedly living on even LESS land.

2) Ordinary people's front and back gardens. Again, people cannot BUILD HOUSES or LIVE on the average front and rear gardens - even if there were not legal problems - because there is simply not the room or access, so such land is definitely NOT available for habitation purposes.

3) MILLIONS OF ACRES owned by private citizens, corporations, pension and Hedge Funds etc etc, and these areas too are DEFINITELY NOT available.

4) 'Grassed over' Colliery slag heaps, Toxic waste sites, bogs, etc. etc. - all of which are DEFINITELY NOT suitable for, therefore not available for Residential Development purposes.

5) Hundreds of thousands of acres of remote rural areas such as moorland etc, where the cost of implementing the infrastructure of residential development is wholly PROHIBITIVE. Not to mention the fact that there would be no industrialisation near at hand to provide jobs for the proposed residents of such new estates.

6)2 million acres of woodland owned by the Forestry Commission and managed for ecological purposes. Do we advocate chopping down all these trees to build houses upon and returning to the 5% of original forest cover left in the UK which caused the creation of the Foresty Commission in the first place. No. These acres are definitely NOT available for building upon.

7) National Parks, Municipal Parks, Sportsd Stadiums, Football pitches, Cricket pitches, etc. None of these areas are 'built upon' and are 'Natural' but are they AVAILABLE for building upon? NO.

8) Greenbelt Land. Yes, some of this land is being eroded and built upon but the bulk of it remains unavailable for building upon.

I think that it is plain to see, that although a great part of the UK is NOT 'built upon' (certainly nowhere as large a figure as 97.73% though) there is very little of such 'unbuilt upon' land which IS TRULY AVAILABLE for Residential Development, and of that which COULD BE available, a lack of funding or legal issues preclude its development. Therefore, 64 million people are currently confined to living in our overcrowded existing villages, towns, and cities, thereby rendering my original statement valid.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-meth...ion/index.html

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/life-in...ndowners-20178

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/450...-country-in-EU

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Cherie my love - I wish to make a few things clear.

When I speak of the 'indigenous' people of this country in my posts, I am referring to the composite people living here now who are chiefly the result of over a thousand years or more of continued intermixing and breeding between many diverse cultures, races, religions and ethnicities - from the ancient Picts, Celts, Romans (from many different countries of the Roman Empire) Jutes, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans etc to more modern day immigrants such as Jamaicans, Asians, Eastern Europeans etc.etc. There is NO such thing as pure English or pure British.

When I oppose our current 'Open Door' policy on immigration, it is not through any 'racist' motive - but Economic and National Security ones, though I will not go into either here, because I have previously written other lengthy posts on both, and this is not the thread to expound such topics.

My father worked all his life down the coal mines apart from 12 years during which he served in the British Army including the entire Second World War fighting overseas - which is when he met and married my mother.

My mother came to this country as the wife of a serving soldier - a genuine marriage far removed from the highly orchestrated 'fake' marriages so prevalent now among immigrants as a way of illegally entering this country - and she came here highly educated, highly qualified, and conversant in the English language.

She worked three jobs for most of her life, yet lived in a state of poverty far lower than she had ever known in her own country before it was ravaged by war, but she never complained and remained to her dying day eternally grateful to this country for welcoming her in and FIERCELY patriotic to it. Not for her, the anti-British bile and incitements to violence spewed by certain of today's treacherous immigrants who despise this country which has embraced them and who have nothing but contempt for the 'indigenous' population whose taxes sustain them. Not for her the desire to tear down the fabric of her host country or the goal of destroying that country and replacing its culture and traditions and religion with those of her native country. Not for her the usurpation of the 'indigenous' people of Britain.

No - she was an immigrant who was grateful to be here. An immigrant who LOVED this country and its people, its culture, its traditions, its hard fought for DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS. She was an immigrant who WORKED hard, who CONTRIBUTED. Who retained her own native and ethnic identity whilst lovingly becoming as BRITISH as it was possible to become.

(Both she and my father were also staunch Socialists for all their lives - but no parents are perfect.)

Anyway, my mother came here at a time when the vessel which is the UK was filling up, due to; refugees, immigration, an upsurge in the birth rate, an increase in longevity due to better education, sanitation, health care and slowly improving living standards etc, but there was STILL, 'Room For All'.

This alas, is no longer the case; the 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

This island is Overpopulated. We are in the midst of the greatest Housing Crisis ever. Our NHS is in its death throes. Our Social Security and Benefits system is virtually bankrupt. Our Police service is underfunded, undermanned and becoming more impotent daily. Our Prisons are overcrowded ticking time bombs. Our other services are in crisis. Our Military Services are being systematically decimated.

The 'vessel which is the UK' is now 'Full to Brimming', and there is no more 'Room For All'.

There are no SANE arguments to allow this situation to continue and it is time to not only 'CALL A HALT', but also time for a UK Government to honestly address these very real, very grave, potentially FATAL problems and STOP BETRAYING THE 'INDIGENOUS' BRITISH PEOPLE.

Yes - Uncontrolled Immigration is but ONE of the many causal problems behind the UK's decline - but it IS a MAJOR causal problem nontheless and URGENTLY needs confronting.

And yes - If my mother was an applicant immigrant now (not the genuine wife of a serving British soldier back then) and I was some detached observer, I would 1,000% endorse her application being scrutinised and measured by the criterion of 'What can she offer this country' NOT 'What can this country offer her'.

If the answer is 'not much' then I would also endorse her application being refused - as draconian as some 'bleeding hearts' may view that.

Good Post Kirk, well written and considerate and puts the UKIP case into focus re the question of immigration.

Anybody settled and living in the UK must surely have no objections to what you write, if they do then they are almost certainly part of the problem not the solution.

Why does it need a UKIP to see this and why are our main political parties not more honest when it comes to immigration and the long term problems associated with mass uncontrolled immigration. This is what puzzles me ?

I guess it can be summed up in one word - GREED, more people working (however low the rate or bad the working conditions) means more tax simple as that and to hell with the quality of life for everyone else.

It angers me that people dismiss UKIP or brand them racists just because they have spoken out about a problem that is staring us all in the face.

I know they cannot win power but hopefully enough MP's to be able to stand up in the House of Commons and hold the Govt to task, shame them into dealing with the problem.

The Media have done a good job on UKIP in the last few months, they have smeared the party with many apparent scandals in an effort to discredit the UKIP name or brand and deter voters. And it has worked in part as polls do show a lessening of support for UKIP but what is the reality ?

Perhaps people are not being too open about their support for this Party due to the bad press but we will see what happens in the privacy of a voting booth.

I predict major gains for UKIP otherwise we are all going to hell in a handbasket.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Good Post Kirk, well written and considerate and puts the UKIP case into focus re the question of immigration.

Anybody settled and living in the UK must surely have no objections to what you write, if they do then they are almost certainly part of the problem not the solution.

Why does it need a UKIP to see this and why are our main political parties not more honest when it comes to immigration and the long term problems associated with mass uncontrolled immigration. This is what puzzles me ?

I guess it can be summed up in one word - GREED, more people working (however low the rate or bad the working conditions) means more tax simple as that and to hell with the quality of life for everyone else.

It angers me that people dismiss UKIP or brand them racists just because they have spoken out about a problem that is staring us all in the face.

I know they cannot win power but hopefully enough MP's to be able to stand up in the House of Commons and hold the Govt to task, shame them into dealing with the problem.

The Media have done a good job on UKIP in the last few months, they have smeared the party with many apparent scandals in an effort to discredit the UKIP name or brand and deter voters. And it has worked in part as polls do show a lessening of support for UKIP but what is the reality ?

Perhaps people are not being too open about their support for this Party due to the bad press but we will see what happens in the privacy of a voting booth.

I predict major gains for UKIP otherwise we are all going to hell in a handbasket.

Thank my Christian God for you Nedusa and for your sense, wisdom and perception. Thank you also for reading my post. I think apart from you and Kizzy and ToySoldier now, no one else does read them, and apart from one response to Kizzy - out of politeness - I am all done writing on Serious Topics because I have better things to do with my time.

We do not always agree Nedusa but I love reading what you have to say and for you to appreciate what I write means a lot to me.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank my Christian God for you Nedusa and for your sense, wisdom and perception. Thank you also for reading my post. I think apart from you and Kizzy and ToySoldier now, no one else does read them, and apart from one response to Kizzy - out of politeness - I am all done writing on Serious Topics because I have better things to do with my time.

We do not always agree Nedusa but I love reading what you have to say and for you to appreciate what I write means a lot to me.

Lt stop posting pics they muck up my iPad

Kirk with all due respect I did read it, but I work and am also doing a course so I don't have time to enter into lengthy debate on every subject

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Lt stop posting pics they muck up my iPad

Kirk with all due respect I did read it, but I work and am also doing a course so I don't have time to enter into lengthy debate on every subject

No prob Cherie. I understand. It is something which I've noticed for a while now though, and I believe that my style of writing is perhaps - boring?
Or perhaps my opinions get up people's noses.

I am also increasingly aware that lengthy posts are not really worth the effort because no amount of, even the most factually corroborated and logical of arguments is going to change one solitary person's mind.

This 'ping ponging' of opinions is perhaps nowhere better illustrated than on the political/election threads, where the Left lambaste the Right and the Right lambaste the Left and neither side is ever going to be persuaded by an opposing argument no matter how eloquently put and no matter how many facts are evidenced - and I am not referring to myself here, because MTVN and Joey Steele among others, are far more knowledgeable than I am.

This conduct is merely paralleling what the political parties do in Westminster anyway, and is the reason why I am tired of the same four yearly pantomime and cannot vote for the Tories or Labour.

I despair of lies and deceit in politics and sometimes wish that old Guido Fawkes and Robert Catesby had succeeded in blowing up the corrupt nest of vixens which is Parliament.

Oh - and I agree about LT's 'Vista-Scope' pics.

Take care Cherie.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Thank my Christian God for you Nedusa and for your sense, wisdom and perception. Thank you also for reading my post. I think apart from you and Kizzy and ToySoldier now, no one else does read them, and apart from one response to Kizzy - out of politeness - I am all done writing on Serious Topics because I have better things to do with my time.

We do not always agree Nedusa but I love reading what you have to say and for you to appreciate what I write means a lot to me.

Aah Kirk, I always read your posts,I don't disagree with a lot you say but there are times I strongly do so and that is a vital and natural element of debate.

No one has all the answers and no one is always right or always wrong.
I for instance don't disagree with UKIP on everything, my problem with UKIP as you know is I am on the full opposite end as to you on them as I would never vote to leave the EU,or even want a referendum as to same.
Not one supposedly promised by the said David Cameron,who I still firmly believe has no intention of holding a referendum at all, no matter what he is saying now.
I really and sincerely believe he will only hold one if it is very clear there will be a 'yes' vote to staying in.

If the result looked possibly too close to call or looked like a clear 'no' to staying in,then there will always be a least around a quarter of the Conservative MPs elected who would never vote for a referendum to be held at that time.
He would likely need a massive overall majority to be able to carry such a bill through parliament and I think he already knows that.
Ironically I feel sure Nigel Farage knows he cannot be trusted on the referendum promise too.

I do believe in fact, had Ed Miliband decided to agree to a referendum that Nigel Farage would have rather done a deal with him than Cameron.

As to what you said about long posts,when like with me, and I am one of the worst for it too, there is a lot to say and you want to say it, then it is best todo so.

When I was at Uni, one of the lecturers who praised my work did laugh and point out that I had one annoying feature at times, it was that when I set about making my points,I did so as if I was travelling from Manchester to London but going via Aberdeen in the process.

I know no other way to make a point however,and even if no one takes a blind bit of notice,at least I have made it and that satisfies me.
So keep on with yours too and I actually think you may be surprised how many do read the posts just as I am with mine too.

I don't just like reading all I agree with,I like to challenge myself and think again on things, many times on here I have had my thinking changed on an issue,then other times I will really dig in my heels and make my point harder.

Anyway, here I go again as you can see so I will stop this post now.