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Old 05-09-2015, 05:51 PM #51
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Tells you a lot about a nation when the bulk of the "poor refugees" are fit young men


Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:53 PM #52
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Where are they going to live though? And Why should the tax payers have to pay for it? I feel sorry for them i genuinely do but we can only allow a small amount in
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:55 PM #53
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There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:57 PM #54
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Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy
With what? Sticks and enthusiasm? I guess we could arm them all with AK47's... That worked so well in Afghanistan in the 80's, it's bound to be worth another go.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:59 PM #55
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Where are they going to live though? And Why should the tax payers have to pay for it? I feel sorry for them i genuinely do but we can only allow a small amount in
Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:06 PM #56
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Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:22 PM #57
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This below was just reposted on my Facebook, says it better than I have been. People who still believe in silly fluffy cups of tea Hugh Grant Mr Bean Britain Britain Britain might not like it but this is your world, this is your history, you ARE responsible. Deal with it.

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Over the last 200 years, Britain has systematically invaded, ravaged and destabilised just about every country in the world. We’ve installed brutal dictators, hoovered up natural resources, sold arms, and started wars just to make sure that this great island stays comfortable, healthy and wealthy.

If you enjoy all the perks of living in this country - schools, healthcare, jobs, roads, nice houses, museums, flat whites - then you need to at least acknowledge that this comfort and safety comes from decades and centuries of your country being an absolute bastard.

And this is not an independence thing - Scotland is as historically implicit in colonialism, slavery and arms dealing as the rest of the UK.

The middle classes right now, or at least the reactionary readers of the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph, would want you to look after your own right now. The refugees escaping Syria and Africa are not our problem.

They are totally our problem. As a society, we’ve sat idly by while our governments have destroyed countries, and fuelled terrorism and civil wars, just so our cost of living can stay low and our standards of living can stay high. We have enough to share. We have enough space, and we have enough money. We live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and we’re happy to reap the benefits of our global cavorting. Now, when it’s coming back to bite us on the arse, we have to accept full responsibility for it. Donate, petition, protest. Just don’t ignore.
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:27 PM #58
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With what? Sticks and enthusiasm? I guess we could arm them all with AK47's... That worked so well in Afghanistan in the 80's, it's bound to be worth another go.
Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.
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Old 05-09-2015, 06:48 PM #59
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Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.
There is no perfect / or even good / solution. The world is broken. Just saying, we played a huge part in breaking it, so we should help make the fall as comfortable as possible. Or if we're not going to do that, we could at least have the balls to acknowledge it .

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Old 05-09-2015, 06:52 PM #60
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This below was just reposted on my Facebook, says it better than I have been. People who still believe in silly fluffy cups of tea Hugh Grant Mr Bean Britain Britain Britain might not like it but this is your world, this is your history, you ARE responsible. Deal with it.
You seriously believe that we're the worst country in the world, don't you. Everything is our responsibility. Personally, I think the Romans are partially responsible, they invaded, enslaved, raped, pillaged... B*stards.

I'm going to ask this question again: how many refugees is the USA taking? Or are they not equally responsible than any country in Europe.

And as a final word... this country has done some positive things in the world. I'm yet to see you mention any one of them. How about the fact we've given more than anyone else in Europe to this crisis? How about the work of the Royal Navy? It's good to balance the positive with the negative or things look skewed.
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:14 PM #61
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There is also the fact that fit young men are just quite obviously far more likely, when faced with war in their country, decide to "**** it" and run. It doesn't mea they aren't genuine refugees. Older people who have had their home for decades are less likely to want to be willing to leave it behind even when they are in danger. People with children and families are less likely to go because of the risks involved - risks that we have all seen over the last few days. Young Women are less likely to be going it alone because it's a Muslim culture and young women are still pretty firmly tied to their home and their family.

That leaves young, unattached men?

You'd find exactly the same happening if it was this country being destroyed by war... Only difference would be that there would be more young women too, but that's purely cultural.

Also, how they're dressed and their appearance IS relevant... If they all "looked poor" then surely it would be MORE believable that they're economic migrants? People are pointing out that they're fit, healthy, well dressed, normal looking people. That's because they ARE normal people, who until recently, had normal homes, normal lives and normal jobs. The argument that they are clearly economic migrants because they don't look poor is so illogical and obviously backwards that it's verging on being outright Special Ed.
er i think you underestimate the UK

we are not spineless cowards

that is why we won wars when we should have lost
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:23 PM #62
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Do they not have an army then?
I know it's weird as the government (Assad) is against many of his own people as well as IS, perhaps the best we can hope for is that they destroy each other eventually.
I just can't see any political way out of this mess to be honest.
Well Syria does have an army, trouble is we were supporting the armed opposition to that army until recently. We still claim to support the 'moderate' rebels but the reality is they are next to non-existent now that IS and other extremists dominate the Syrian opposition to the extent they do. Iraq had an army but we disbanded it after the invasion and its new one is a complete mess. Libya had an army but we supported the armed opposition to that too which is now a series of competing militias, many of them extreme, now roaming the country with the government lacking any control. Not an ideal situation for the budding young patriot to head off to the trenches for his country.

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Old 05-09-2015, 08:02 PM #63
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Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
Again - and for a final time - because we in the West enjoy a comfortable, wasteful lifestyle thanks to centuries of exploiting the rest of the world. To thrown our hands up now and squeal "Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!" isn't just irresponsible, it's ****ing evil.
Your views are increasingly over-simplistic, almost infantile, T.S. and certainly not true at all.

1) EVERY great civilisation has - at some time in history - "exploited the rest of the world".

2) No one on Tibb, or in the UK, even, 'Throws up his hands' and squeals; ""Nothing to do with us! You're not getting any of MY help or precious precious money!".

The British are among the kindest, most charitable and caring people on Earth, so just for a nice change from continually berating us and denigrating our intelligence and our natures, why don't you prove your hysterical 'sweeping' statements with hard factual evidence?
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Old 05-09-2015, 08:07 PM #64
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Well Syria does have an army, trouble is we were supporting the armed opposition to that army until recently. We still claim to support the 'moderate' rebels but the reality is they are next to non-existent now that IS and other extremists dominate the Syrian opposition to the extent they do. Iraq had an army but we disbanded it after the invasion and its new one is a complete mess. Libya had an army but we supported the armed opposition to that too which is now a series of competing militias, many of them extreme, now roaming the country with the government lacking any control. Not an ideal situation for the budding young patriot to head off to the trenches for his country.
Terrible situation all round.
I can see your point about it not being an ideal situation for the young men to stand up to fight.
Goodness only knows if there will ever be a solution to this mess.
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Old 05-09-2015, 08:45 PM #65
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You seriously believe that we're the worst country in the world, don't you.
No, I just completely reject the notion that we are some sort of benevolent "force for good" in the world or ever have been, or even that we are somehow benign and blameless in these situations. We're not. The British Empire created a complete ****ing shambles as it was rising, The US I agree then took that torch and carried it even further. I don't for a second think it's "only" the UK or that we're the worst, other European nations too (many of them) did the same. The first world has amassed wealth by colonising the third, and by pillaging vast resources from other parts of the world, and now the aftershocks of all of that are starting to hit home. And we all put on our best shocked-face and pretend to be surprised?

Kirk asks me for "evidence"? I don't even understand. Stop. Look at the world. Look at what is happening, look at where it's happening, and tell me that it's a coincidence that it's spreading out from areas that are absolutely covered in our fingerprints.

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Old 05-09-2015, 08:49 PM #66
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We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.
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Old 05-09-2015, 08:51 PM #67
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We should get into unseaworthy vessels, trek to their ****hole countries and claim asylum. See how they like it.
I can pretty much guarantee that you would get shot.

Probably before you got on the boat.
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Old 05-09-2015, 08:53 PM #68
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No, I just completely reject the notion that we are some sort of benevolent "force for good" in the world or ever have been, or even that we are somehow benign and blameless in these situations. We're not. The British Empire created a complete ****ing shambles as it was rising, The US I agree then took that torch and carried it even further. I don't for a second think it's "only" the UK or that we're the worst, other European nations too (many of them) did the same. The first world has amassed wealth by colonising the third, and by pillaging vast resources from other parts of the world, and now the aftershocks of all of that are starting to hit home. And we all put on our best shocked-face and pretend to be surprised?

Kirk asks me for "evidence"? I don't even understand. Stop. Look at the world. Look at what is happening, look at where it's happening, and tell me that it's a coincidence that it's spreading out from areas that are absolutely covered in our fingerprints.
The British Empire was a long time ago. It's the Commonwealth now and that's a good thing. So good that Mozambique, which was never part of the Empire asked to join and was accepted.

People shaft each other and power corrupts. It's human nature. But there's a balance; for all the harm that's done there are selfless acts of kindness.
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:00 PM #69
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Draft dodgers....or whatever it is called nowadays.
I know the country has gone to pot but surely all these young men could stay and fight the enemy
Are you saying these men are cowards because they don't want to stay in their country and die? :/
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:04 PM #70
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The British Empire was a long time ago. It's the Commonwealth now and that's a good thing. So good that Mozambique, which was never part of the Empire asked to join and was accepted.

People shaft each other and power corrupts. It's human nature. But there's a balance; for all the harm that's done there are selfless acts of kindness.
A few hundred years ago is not really a "long time" ago, though, is it? It's taken a long time for things to start to unravel, but we're certainly there. I've mentioned before in other threads - the road down won't be quick either.

I disagree that there's balance. There is selflessness and kindness... but there is nowhere near enough of it to change the path we're on.

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Old 05-09-2015, 09:29 PM #71
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A few hundred years ago is not really a "long time" ago, though, is it? It's taken a long time for things to start to unravel, but we're certainly there. I've mentioned before in other threads - the road down won't be quick either.

I disagree that there's balance. There is selflessness and kindness... but there is nowhere near enough of it to change the path we're on.
You need a hug, TS.
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:32 PM #72
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You need a hug, TS.
The world needs a hug!
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:34 PM #73
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The world needs a hug!
I only have room for a finite amount of hugs.
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:42 PM #74
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I have a bleeding heart if that's any good?....
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:12 PM #75
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Are you saying these men are cowards because they don't want to stay in their country and die? :/
I was genuinely wondering why they didn't stay and fight.
As if appears there is no proper army they could join I would hardly call them cowards.
Different world to what we are brought up in and takes a bit of understanding.
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