[_Seth]

Hopefully the title makes sense in its own right. One paradox I try to remember which works quite well is this: When it comes to prayer, if you pray for something but fear it won't be acted upon by infinite intelligence, your prayer will have been in vain.

This means that you are to enter prayer (or wish/hope) with no fear of anything going wrong, so for you to be confident in everything turning out alright, you must eliminate doubt, then your wish will turn out.

It's hard to explain, but I hope this could help anyone who may need it, or at least spur you on a bit longer.

Does anyone else know of any such logic paradoxes that do away with fear?

[Braden]

I feel like thislogic could apply to things I fear, but it is quite difficult to understand

[Kate!]

Its hard to have such a strong faith in times of strife.

Its like positive visualisation which can work sometimes. I'm cautious about this.

[Jamie89]

I suppose you could say that if you fear something, then there must be uncertainty as to whether or not you'll beat whatever it is (because if there was no chance you wouldn't be afraid, you'd be resigned to it - in the same way that terminal patients are generally unafraid of death, whereas someone who isn't terminal but has severe injuries may be very afraid). Therefore the fact that you fear it is actually a positive thing because it means you also have hope. And focusing on the hope should make you feel less afraid.

[kirklancaster]

It is an irrefutable fact, that people who have an unshakeable belief in God, do not experience as many types of 'Fear' or the same level of 'Fear' as non-believers.

Belief and Faith are two different things, but both are vital when praying. As the OP says; Why even pray if you do not KNOW who you are praying to, and if you do not truly believe anyone is listening anyway?

I am no shining paragon of virtue, but I BELIEVE in God, and therefore I pray EVERY sngle night - and guess what? It works for me.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Phlip

Hopefully the title makes sense in its own right. One paradox I try to remember which works quite well is this: When it comes to prayer, if you pray for something but fear it won't be acted upon by infinite intelligence, your prayer will have been in vain.

This means that you are to enter prayer (or wish/hope) with no fear of anything going wrong, so for you to be confident in everything turning out alright, you must eliminate doubt, then your wish will turn out.

It's hard to explain, but I hope this could help anyone who may need it, or at least spur you on a bit longer.

Does anyone else know of any such logic paradoxes that do away with fear?

That's quite interesting but I have to say, I'd approach it differently.

Lets say I'm due to stand up and give a talk on a subject I'm reasonably well versed on. Prior to the talk I will start to worry; I'll go over things repeatedly in my head and I'll practice out loud. As the time approaches I feel more and more worried about making a mess of things, right up to the point of deciding, I'm not going to do it. As soon as I make the decision that I don't have to do this I start to relax and the paradoxical psychology starts to kick in. Of course, I do want to do my talk, but knowing I don't have to if I don't want sorts it out for me!!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Phlip

Hopefully the title makes sense in its own right. One paradox I try to remember which works quite well is this: When it comes to prayer, if you pray for something but fear it won't be acted upon by infinite intelligence, your prayer will have been in vain.

This means that you are to enter prayer (or wish/hope) with no fear of anything going wrong, so for you to be confident in everything turning out alright, you must eliminate doubt, then your wish will turn out.

It's hard to explain, but I hope this could help anyone who may need it, or at least spur you on a bit longer.

Does anyone else know of any such logic paradoxes that do away with fear?

..not a real one, no..but something I read once set as an example of how an extreme fear could be overcome... with someone being sentenced to a death penalty.... they were told that they would be put to death in a certain time period but that they wouldn't know the exact day.. ..obviously for that whole time they would be anticipating their 'day of death' but not know exactly when it would come so every day the fear factor would be huge ..so they were told that this would be carried out within 2 weeks...they thought hmmm, it can't be on the last day of that two week period because if it did get to then and I was still alive, then I would know the day and I was told that I wouldn't know the day../so we'll write that one off as a possibility...so could it be the second to last day of that two weeks..?..well no, because we already know it's not the last one so if it got to the second last one and I was still alive, then it can't be that one either/(being the last possible one..)..as I was told I wouldn't know it...so we'll write that one off as well...so the third last..?../well no, that's now become the last possible one and I would know that one as well so not that....and etc and etc to dismiss all of the days as being their possible death days...(obviously they were put to death because that was their sentencing/hypothetically/it was an 'inevitable'..)...but because they had dismissed every day as being that day, they didn't fear any, so their fear being overcome with a logical paradox....

[Ammi]

..I guess it's the fear itself as well, is it an 'inevitability' like that with something terrifying, so it's then just getting from one day to another without each day being a 'fear day' ..or is the fear imaginary/a 'mind monster' type thing, which many fears/anxieties etc are...that crossing of bridges when that bridge has not even presented itself yet and the mind imagining the 'worst outcome' or most terrifying to that person outcome...like something like a job interview..?..and someone being absolutely terrified...obviously they haven't been for that job interview yet so their terror has no reasoning or logic really, it's a mind monster but obviously it's very real to them...then for me, not logic paradox, but logic would be to disable that mind monster by taking away it's power/chipping away at it bit by bit until it dissolves or becomes small enough to deal with...don't even think about the interview, prepare obviously but don't 'get there' in your head ...just take it all step by step../wake up in the morning and try to focus on just getting dressed etc, just the normal stuff you would do, but one bit chipped away though...then the next step..which is 'all I'm doing is getting into my car and driving somewhere/nothing more than that'.. /or whatever else transport etc.../so another bit being chipped away...then focus on parking etc or walking from the train station to the place needed to get to...and then you're finally in the interview and step by step, bit by bit...and you see that your 'monster' wasn't terrifying at all because what's the worst that can happen.../you don't get the job, well not a 'monster' at all because that's fine, you'll go for another interview and when you do, you'll be less fearful because you're controlling that monster in your head....

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I guess it's the fear itself as well, is it an 'inevitability' like that with something terrifying, so it's then just getting from one day to another without each day being a 'fear day' ..or is the fear imaginary/a 'mind monster' type thing, which many fears/anxieties etc are...that crossing of bridges when that bridge has not even presented itself yet and the mind imagining the 'worst outcome' or most terrifying to that person outcome...like something like a job interview..?..and someone being absolutely terrified...obviously they haven't been for that job interview yet so their terror has no reasoning or logic really, it's a mind monster but obviously it's very real to them...then for me, not logic paradox, but logic would be to disable that mind monster by taking away it's power/chipping away at it bit by bit until it dissolves or becomes small enough to deal with...don't even think about the interview, prepare obviously but don't 'get there' in your head ...just take it all step by step../wake up in the morning and try to focus on just getting dressed etc, just the normal stuff you would do, but one bit chipped away though...then the next step..which is 'all I'm doing is getting into my car and driving somewhere/nothing more than that'.. /or whatever else transport etc.../so another bit being chipped away...then focus on parking etc or walking from the train station to the place needed to get to...and then you're finally in the interview and step by step, bit by bit...and you see that your 'monster' wasn't terrifying at all because what's the worst that can happen.../you don't get the job, well not a 'monster' at all because that's fine, you'll go for another interview and when you do, you'll be less fearful because you're controlling that monster in your head....

The problem with the 'mind monster' is, its much bigger and stronger and faster than the 'logic' side of the brain and therefore we can't con it or trick it. We have to allow the 'mind monster' to come out and exercise before we can reason with it and because it responds quite well to 'reason', we can take control and calm it down but what we should never try and do is ignore it or suppress it because willpower will only create an arm wrestle with the 'mind monster'.

You said, " what's the worst that can happen.../you don't get the job, that's fine, you'll go for another interview.

That is the sort of logic reasoning we need to have with our 'mind monster'. Once it understands that the gremlins aren't really a threat it can start to undress its fears. Fact, truth and logic will calm the mind monster down. Professor Steve Peters calls this; Boxing the chimp

[LeatherTrumpet]

muttering to yourself is just muttering to yourself

fact

[Ammi]

..it isn't bigger and stronger though, it's only trying to be that/trying to control through typical behaviour patterns of people..but what we always have and the only thing we really ever have is control over ourselves... and we can take away the power of a 'mind monster'/fear/something that's just an 'imaginary', by breaking it down and disabling it...people quite often don't even know exactly what their fear is/they can't rationalise it, because fear sends a mind into chaos and it builds and it builds..all they do know is that they feel it and that a certain thing or situation is terrifying to them...and when that terror is there to the point of being disabling and restricting, it's too much to try to deal with the whole thing, that would just be too daunting and an impossible task for most really.../so the only way to do it, is to break it down into little pieces and solve each 'piece' that we can...starting with the more easily solved ones..and with each one solved, control comes back in things like confidence and feel good etc , so empowering us to look at another 'piece'...and another and another...step by step, piece by piece...and also dismissing anything of our fear that is beyond our control because no matter how much we may worry about those thing, they're not in our power to change....CBT, is something that is very good at applying logic to the irrational and changing typical behaviour patterns... /but obviously nothing will work for everyone so that's also down to individuals as well...

[DemolitionRed]

I disagree but then I'm a big fan of The Chimp Paradox. Its a book my father gave me years after I went through a 'real' trauma. Its about our inner mind, emotions, thinking and memory. The author, for simple understanding uses the Chimp (mind monster) the Computer and the Human. The chimp is the emotional machine and offers emotional thoughts that can be constructive or very destructive. It can be your best friend or worst enemy. The Human is the logical thinking side of the brain and the Computer logs information and stores what the human and chimp feed into it.

The Chimp does not necessarily work with facts but it works with what it believes is the truth or with a perception of the truth or, even worse, with a projection of what might be the truth. Its quick to form an impression on little, if any, evidence and usually won't give way. Some impressions that the Chimp gives us are accurate and helpful, but they can just as easily be wrong.

The trauma I suffered included 'real' and reasonable fear. Because that fear was logged in my memory forever, my chimp started to weigh up future situations as potentially dangerous. I tried to suppress those feelings but I found myself failing again and again. The Chimp was playing havoc and the more I tried to destroy it, the stronger it became. What I've learnt from that book is, you can't ignore your most primal instincts because they are an integeral part of you. Our instinct for survival is stronger than any other instinct and so if anything is going to warn us of danger and help us survive its our Chimp. The problem is, the Chimp so often gets it wrong.

With the help of that book I learnt to harness my Chimp and its helped me in so many situations.

[Ammi]

..I think that's it though, logic can be applied in different ways to combat fears and it's like most things in life..not a 'one size fits all thing'...for me, when I had my brain tumour..that for me was something that I didn't fear at all because that was out of my control, it was in the hands of all of the medical people ..but my fears came afterwards, through just basically 'not being a part of the outside world' for so long, almost 2 years and pretty much just fearing that stepping outside what had become a place of safety/a cocoon...just seeing people, going back to work etc all became 'monsters' to me...what gave me myself back was CBT and hypnotherapy...that's how I broke all of my fears down, which of course weren't real but just bridges that I hadn't crossed and was fearful of crossing....anyways, it's never going to be the same for everyone for the very reason that we're all entirely different..so I guess what it really is, is applying the logic that personally works for us...

[Ammi]

..I will read up on the Chimp Paradox sometime btw because these are things that I'm always interested in...

[DemolitionRed]

I'm sorry you had to go through that Ammi, but from what you are saying, I think you have harnessed the Chimp. You talk about applying logic and this is the one vital tool we need to conquer our irrational fears.

I honestly recommend this book to so many people Ammi. Its one book I will never part with.

[Ammi]

..I read a little of the basis of it this morning...(because I wake up early..)...and yeah, I guess that the chimp, the human and the computer could also be applied to some things and parts of CBT, the conscious and the subconscious, which holds the 'power' of our behaviour patterns and all of our life experiences/associations etc..I think it's like everything really and as the OP says...things will help if we believe in them and believe they will help..and we can take just parts of things as well, the parts that we can relate to and apply just those parts.../we don't have to believe in a 'whole' because we are all different, so very few 'wholes' will ever apply to any of us...I suppose like any advice that someone could give you in any specific situation that they may have gone through/something similar....you take what applies/apply what you take and leave the bits that you don't need ....

[Toy Soldier]

So essentially what we're saying is that God and Prayer are a placebo? The "believer" prays and after doing so truly believes that they will be given help from a higher power - this gives them a massive boost in confidence (and therefore appearance) and increases the likelihood of them taking "calculated risks", and because of this, they are more likely to succeed, artificially reinforcing their belief system and at the same time (theoretically) further strengthening the placebo effect of prayer in future. It worked once so it will work again, right?

Very interesting, actually...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So essentially what we're saying is that God and Prayer are a placebo? The "believer" prays and after doing so truly believes that they will be given help from a higher power - this gives them a massive boost in confidence (and therefore appearance) and increases the likelihood of them taking "calculated risks", and because of this, they are more likely to succeed, artificially reinforcing their belief system and at the same time (theoretically) further strengthening the placebo effect of prayer in future. It worked once so it will work again, right?

Very interesting, actually...

...no, that's what you're saying....the OP mentioned prayer/faith etc as just one example of something that someone could have absolute belief in ....and if they did have that and believed it to be true, then they would have no fear.../that doesn't mean that it would change anything, just that it would dispel and combat that fear...like the death sentence example../of course, he was put to death anyway but his logic reasoning was that he wouldn't be, so felt no fear...




__________________

[Ammi]

..I was saying no to the calculated risk bit/not necessarily that someone would take risks as such/just really that belief and faith in anything at all can dispel fears...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I was saying no to the calculated risk bit/not necessarily that someone would take risks as such/just really that belief and faith in anything at all can dispel fears...

Yes but that still makes it a placebo I guess. The belief itself is what's dispelling the fear... It doesn't actually "do" or change anything externally and any increase in success levels are down to the individual being relaxed and confident, rather than having had a "helping hand".

However, I don't actually see how any of this is paradoxical... There's no paradox, more of an irony.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yes but that still makes it a placebo I guess. The belief itself is what's dispelling the fear... It doesn't actually "do" or change anything externally and any increase in success levels are down to the individual being relaxed and confident, rather than having had a "helping hand".

However, I don't actually see how any of this is paradoxical... There's no paradox, more of an irony.

..you just mean with the OP, then..?../sorry I'm a little confused/breaking down a fear/worry/anxiety etc with logic does have a changing effect because it can dispel it...for me, it's got nothing to do with success though...(I'll come back to it later if you reply because I'm just about to watch The Walking Dead..)...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..you just mean with the OP, then..?../sorry I'm a little confused/breaking down a fear/worry/anxiety etc with logic does have a changing effect because it can dispel it...for me, it's got nothing to do with success though...(I'll come back to it later if you reply because I'm just about to watch The Walking Dead..)...

I'm talking about the OP in regards to wishes/hopes/prayers coming to pass (being successful) as a result of wishing/hoping/praying without fear that they will. That's what's a placebo. Doing so doesn't actually have any impact at all, in abstract terms, on the likelihood of what you want to happen actually happening: what it MIGHT do is increase the likelihood of you taking positive action to achieve those goals by increasing confidence.

What you're talking about is purely the internal part, actively using logic to remove fear, with the removal of fear being the goal in itself, which is something slightly different.

However, I still am not seeing where paradox comes into it. I don't see a paradox and, moreover, if there WAS a logical paradox then by definition the problem would be unsolvable? I don't know if there's something I'm not getting or if maybe OP just used the wrong word? You can't combat or solve anything with a paradox. Surely. If you hit a paradox then you start over because your logic is flawed... You can't "close the loop", so to speak, or in programming terms, it would "crash your computer".

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think that's it though, logic can be applied in different ways to combat fears and it's like most things in life..not a 'one size fits all thing'...for me, when I had my brain tumour..that for me was something that I didn't fear at all because that was out of my control, it was in the hands of all of the medical people ..but my fears came afterwards, through just basically 'not being a part of the outside world' for so long, almost 2 years and pretty much just fearing that stepping outside what had become a place of safety/a cocoon...just seeing people, going back to work etc all became 'monsters' to me...what gave me myself back was CBT and hypnotherapy...that's how I broke all of my fears down, which of course weren't real but just bridges that I hadn't crossed and was fearful of crossing....anyways, it's never going to be the same for everyone for the very reason that we're all entirely different..so I guess what it really is, is applying the logic that personally works for us...

It's interesting you mentioning hypnotherapy as for that to work you're allowing yourself in essence to be rebooted by a force greater than your own conscious self, and you have to 100% be open and receptive to it therefore proving that the paradox in the OP is at work.

[Kizzy]

What I take from the OP is that the paradox is the whole concept of will is based on a belief structure, it may be where the phrase 'be careful what you wish for' and 'don't tease the cosmic joker' came from?
If you put something out there in the universe and you will it, then don't be surprised if it happens....but mot in the way you expect, say you get invited somewhere but you're working that day you might 'wish' you weren't and fall and twist your ankle, it's what you wanted but not quite.

I have a book called ' conversation with a witch' in it the concept described by the OP is outlined in the book as 'will' you are essentially asking the universe to provide you with something like placing an order, you believe it is out there and you are drawing it to you...it is not a 'wish' that still has doubt attached, when you say 'wish' there's the acknowledgement you don't have whatever it is or not enough.
Therefore a spell or an incantation is the asking of the universe/ goddess/spirit to bless you with what to require and trusting it is making it's way.

This is the same formula for prayer, you have perfect trust that the universe/god/spirit is answering your requests.
Which is why I hate ill willing even as a joke, it upsets me when I see thing like ' Why won't so and so just die'? I don't think anything like that should ever be put out there.

[Ammi]

...Hypnotherapy combined wit CBT are about empowering yourself and nothing at all to do with being empowered by anyone else...

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm talking about the OP in regards to wishes/hopes/prayers coming to pass (being successful) as a result of wishing/hoping/praying without fear that they will. That's what's a placebo. Doing so doesn't actually have any impact at all, in abstract terms, on the likelihood of what you want to happen actually happening: what it MIGHT do is increase the likelihood of you taking positive action to achieve those goals by increasing confidence.

What you're talking about is purely the internal part, actively using logic to remove fear, with the removal of fear being the goal in itself, which is something slightly different.

However, I still am not seeing where paradox comes into it. I don't see a paradox and, moreover, if there WAS a logical paradox then by definition the problem would be unsolvable? I don't know if there's something I'm not getting or if maybe OP just used the wrong word? You can't combat or solve anything with a paradox. Surely. If you hit a paradox then you start over because your logic is flawed... You can't "close the loop", so to speak, or in programming terms, it would "crash your computer".

...the only logic paradox example really that I can think of in dealing with an extreme fear is the one I read and posted..it would be the fear of an inevitable/something that the prisoner had no control over, rather than something they could possibly control, because it was imaginary...a fear that hadn't really been broken down as to the logic of it.../so you're right it changed nothing, other than death came for him with no fear because he was convinced and had absolute total belief that he wouldn't die...the only logics that I can think of and apply to things like 'mind monsters' and dispelling fear, aren't paradoxes, they are just logic controlling extreme emotion etc..I guess it's a concentration on things that can be controlled and changed and dispelling and dismissing anything that can't and not allowing that to 'clog up' either the mind so that it's clearer or any energy on it...