[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...Hypnotherapy combined wit CBT are about empowering yourself and nothing at all to do with being empowered by anyone else...

Then your subconscious self is the infinite intelligence that acts upon your request.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm talking about the OP in regards to wishes/hopes/prayers coming to pass (being successful) as a result of wishing/hoping/praying without fear that they will. That's what's a placebo. Doing so doesn't actually have any impact at all, in abstract terms, on the likelihood of what you want to happen actually happening: what it MIGHT do is increase the likelihood of you taking positive action to achieve those goals by increasing confidence.

What you're talking about is purely the internal part, actively using logic to remove fear, with the removal of fear being the goal in itself, which is something slightly different.

However, I still am not seeing where paradox comes into it. I don't see a paradox and, moreover, if there WAS a logical paradox then by definition the problem would be unsolvable? I don't know if there's something I'm not getting or if maybe OP just used the wrong word? You can't combat or solve anything with a paradox. Surely. If you hit a paradox then you start over because your logic is flawed... You can't "close the loop", so to speak, or in programming terms, it would "crash your computer".

I think I get it, it's that wishing is a paradox as that involves doubt as the fear and therefore the wish can never be realised due to this?..

If I were to say 'I wish this wasn't unsolvable' then it would be a logical paradox as I have the element of doubt in there.

[Ammi]

..I guess it's things like irritations and annoyances as well, not all of them but some of those 'irrational' ones, where we just don't understand them/there is no logic or reason to them because our conscious mind hasn't linked and associated but the sub conscious is more a photographic memory of life experiences etc...it's hard to explain but the most 'obvious' one I think for me is that it used to drive me crazy when people put things up on high, where I had to really stretch to get that thing..or even if I didn't have to get it down, it still irritated me that they had put it there, like something on top of a cupboar or a wardrobe, type thing.../anyways, something that I was aware of but didn't actually recall myself as I was so young at the time it happened..was that my mum put some hot oil she was purifying on a very high shelf when my brother and I were children...it wasn't something that we could reach, so she felt it was quite safe to do so...but my brother has a very determined personality and he dragged a table over to under the shelf and reached up to see what was inside the jug...he still couldn't reach to look in and could only still just reach it with his hand stretched, so he tipped it forward to see.../anyways, thankfully it missed him but some caught my upper arm and obviously a serious burn....

...so the putting on high places and the irritation..?../it was because my subconscious recalled and associated physical pain with that act..but something that I had never consciously associated myself so was confused as to why the irritations...once understood and linked, then irritations dissolve...for some people anyway..../I won't derail the thread any longer though because it's logic but not logic paradoxes ....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I guess it's things like irritations and annoyances as well, not all of them but some of those 'irrational' ones, where we just don't understand them/there is no logic or reason to them because our conscious mind hasn't linked and associated but the sub conscious is more a photographic memory of life experiences etc...it's hard to explain but the most 'obvious' one I think for me is that it used to drive me crazy when people put things up on high, where I had to really stretch to get that thing..or even if I didn't have to get it down, it still irritated me that they had put it there, like something on top of a cupboar or a wardrobe, type thing.../anyways, something that I was aware of but didn't actually recall myself as I was so young at the time it happened..was that my mum put some hot oil she was purifying on a very high shelf when my brother and I were children...it wasn't something that we could reach, so she felt it was quite safe to do so...but my brother has a very determined personality and he dragged a table over to under the shelf and reached up to see what was inside the jug...he still couldn't reach to look in and could only still just reach it with his hand stretched, so he tipped it forward to see.../anyways, thankfully it missed him but some caught my upper arm and obviously a serious burn....

...so the putting on high places and the irritation..?../it was because my subconscious recalled and associated physical pain with that act..but something that I had never consciously associated myself so was confused as to why the irritations...once understood and linked, then irritations dissolve...for some people anyway..../I won't derail the thread any longer though because it's logic but not logic paradoxes ....

This is an association, you associated high things with pain, it's illogical rather than logical.

[Cherie]

I don't have a book I can call on to help

[Ammi]

..it's logical because of the sub-conscious association...and many things are often projected outwardly with anger and annoyance etc and especially things which aren't understood because there doesn't seem a reason for them...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't have a book I can call on to help

...neither do I but we can have a book shopping day sometime if you want to, Cherie...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...neither do I but we can have a book shopping day sometime if you want to, Cherie...

I think I need this.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I think I need this.

...we'll be logical and wait until Josy has some book deals for us though, I think...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's logical because of the sub-conscious association...and many things are often projected outwardly with anger and annoyance etc and especially things which aren't understood because there doesn't seem a reason for them...

As in an irrational fear? I wouldn't say that had any basis in logic or reasoning.

[Ammi]

..the whole thing is that it wasn't irrational at all, it was a very rational link that just wasn't understood so felt irrational/without basis ...understanding is dissolving....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..the whole thing is that it wasn't irrational at all, it was a very rational link that just wasn't understood so felt irrational/without basis ...understanding is dissolving....

My understanding isn't dissolving. Yes you had an experience, the irrational fear that that experience will be repeated isn't logical whether you understand the reasoning behind it or not.

[Ammi]

..it's not about it being repeated or any pain being caused again, if that was the fear, then it would be a perfectly rational one because none of us would choose to be physically hurt, it's about associations and taking control, which starts with understanding ourselves..anyways, there isn't really anything else to say and I'm sure that you understand yourself very well also which is marvellous/enjoy your afternoon....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's not about it being repeated or any pain being caused again, if that was the fear, then it would be a perfectly rational one because none of us would choose to be physically hurt, it's about associations and taking control, which starts with understanding ourselves..anyways, there isn't really anything else to say and I'm sure that you understand yourself very well also which is marvellous/enjoy your afternoon....

You explained the reason for the fear was a childhood incident, this is how I understood it yes.
Not sure how marvellous it is but it's how I interpreted the events as you explained them.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm talking about the OP in regards to wishes/hopes/prayers coming to pass (being successful) as a result of wishing/hoping/praying without fear that they will. That's what's a placebo. Doing so doesn't actually have any impact at all, in abstract terms, on the likelihood of what you want to happen actually happening: what it MIGHT do is increase the likelihood of you taking positive action to achieve those goals by increasing confidence.

What you're talking about is purely the internal part, actively using logic to remove fear, with the removal of fear being the goal in itself, which is something slightly different.

However, I still am not seeing where paradox comes into it. I don't see a paradox and, moreover, if there WAS a logical paradox then by definition the problem would be unsolvable? I don't know if there's something I'm not getting or if maybe OP just used the wrong word? You can't combat or solve anything with a paradox. Surely. If you hit a paradox then you start over because your logic is flawed... You can't "close the loop", so to speak, or in programming terms, it would "crash your computer".

I don't agree that you can't solve anything with paradoxical intervention.

We avoid what we fear but if we purposely bring about what we fear then its paradoxical or at least it could be. An example of this is stammering. A person who stammers fears talking to new people or to an audience. That person spends all his/her time worrying about it which of course makes the stammer worse. Logical attempts to stop the stammer could be speech therapy but if speech therapy fails to give a result, what then? paradoxical thinking may be about finding an odd alternative and acting on that alternative, no matter how bizarre. If they can do that, they may just find a paradoxical solution.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't agree that you can't solve anything with paradoxical intervention.

We avoid what we fear but if we purposely bring about what we fear then its paradoxical or at least it could be. An example of this is stammering. A person who stammers fears talking to new people or to an audience. That person spends all his/her time worrying about it which of course makes the stammer worse. Logical attempts to stop the stammer could be speech therapy but if speech therapy fails to give a result, what then? paradoxical thinking may be about finding an odd alternative and acting on that alternative, no matter how bizarre. If they can do that, they may just find a paradoxical solution.

This is quite brilliant really.

[Kizzy]

Amazing what you can do when you think outside of the box