[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Elf On Strike

I believe what Kirk was meaning is that lines become blurred giving the extremists a degree of acceptability, so its not really conjecture at all.

Thank you BOTS.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

That's pure conjecture, the questionable Quran/Bible references discussion is raised in all threads relating to religion.
There is more to jihadism than fundamentalism.

Your knowledge of this particular emboldened point is then, far more authorative than the results of a number of recent surveys which show that ISIS and other Islamic Extrememist Terrorist organisations DO HAVE varying degrees of sympathy and support amongst a number of 'ordinary' Muslims?

Secondly, I do not understand what you mean by: "the questionable Quran/Bible references discussion is raised in all threads relating to religion" So perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Lastly, perhaps you would also expound on what you mean by; "There is more to jihadism than fundamentalism." because, this too, I do not understand.

[Tom4784]

The issue that this thread highlights is that people instantly associate terrorism with Islam which forces it's practitioners to defend themselves despite the fact that, in America in particularly, you are more likely to die in a terror attack from a Christian then you are from a Muslim. The only difference is that the media never classes the numerous shootings as terror attacks despite the fact that they are no different.

To most Christians, their religion is about love and peace and it's the same for the vast majority of Muslims. To make either party fully responsible for the acts of extremists is foolish.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Your knowledge of this particular emboldened point is then, far more authorative than the results of a number of recent surveys which show that ISIS and other Islamic Extrememist Terrorist organisations DO HAVE varying degrees of sympathy and support amongst a number of 'ordinary' Muslims?

Secondly, I do not understand what you mean by: "the questionable Quran/Bible references discussion is raised in all threads relating to religion" So perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Lastly, perhaps you would also expound on what you mean by; "There is more to jihadism than fundamentalism." because, this too, I do not understand.

A survey of all Muslims? No, I'm not aware of that. I have a vague recollection of one mentioned in a thread recently, but that means nothing as many wild and unsubstantiated claims are made regularly.

There are in many religious texts inciteful or hateful references, this has been quoted and referenced across many threads with religion as a discussion topic.

I'm suggesting jihadism is the perfect storm of religious and political extremism.

[Livia]

All religions have their extremists and those extremists are usually violent, sometimes to the point of terrorism. It's just that the Muslim extremists are the ones making the most noise right now.

[Northern Monkey]

These terrorists are usually very devout muslims so it is silly to suggest that they are not muslims.They are just the dark side of Islam.

[LeatherTrumpet]

As Kyle states its the True Scotsman fallacy

But look, if you have cult and its based on lies and made up mythical figures you will get people who work out that they can do things with impunity and say god will be happy with them.

You even get normal religionists saying "god told me to do this and he said this to me"

Of course extremists are religionists just as much as the ones who dont kill people


problem with islam is that its unreformed and particularly nasty

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Joseph the Carpenter

As Kyle states its the True Scotsman fallacy

But look, if you have cult and its based on lies and made up mythical figures you will get people who work out that they can do things with impunity and say god will be happy with them.

You even get normal religionists saying "god told me to do this and he said this to me"

Of course extremists are religionists just as much as the ones who dont kill people


problem with islam is that its unreformed and particularly nasty

The problem with atheists is they're all theologians

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

The problem with atheists is they're all theologians

you can be atheist and have knowledge of religions

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

The problem with atheists is they're all theologians

Atheists surely make the best theologians (in terms of sociology), as anyone who is actually subscribed to one religion is going to be, undoubtedly, biased...

I suppose from a spiritual point of view rather than sociological, the best theologians would be agnostics?

Hmmm.


Anyway, I've fixed the thread title to reflect the only thing that really matters:

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

A survey of all Muslims? No, I'm not aware of that. I have a vague recollection of one mentioned in a thread recently, but that means nothing as many wild and unsubstantiated claims are made regularly.

There are in many religious texts inciteful or hateful references, this has been quoted and referenced across many threads with religion as a discussion topic.

I'm suggesting jihadism is the perfect storm of religious and political extremism.

Will you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what I write, because NOWHERE did I say that such surveys were of "all Muslims" - I distinctly said; " Your knowledge of this particular emboldened point is then, far more authorative than the results of a number of recent surveys which show that ISIS and other Islamic Extrememist Terrorist organisations DO HAVE varying degrees of sympathy and support amongst a number of 'ordinary' Muslims? "

I am also aware, that there are "many inciteful or hateful references" in many religious texts, and that this fact has been explored in other threads, but you must be also aware - having debated on such threads with me - that Old Testament violence is 'closed-ended' violence which is era specific, ie; no idiotic Jewish extremists can claim to be following Old Testament Scripture by going out and slaying 'Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites' -- chiefly because no such peoples still exist.

The passages of violence in the Qran however, though historical, are 'open-ended' and are still capabable of being seized upon today by Islamic Terrorists to try to justify their evil acts as being the 'Will of Allah'.

Now we KNOW and the huge majority of peace-loving moderate Muslims KNOW, that the terrorists are NOT religious, though Muslim by name, and that their evil campaign has NOTHING to do with Allah.

The above being true, the actions of ISIS or any other Islamic Extremist Terrorist organisation cannot be any 'Perfect Storm' of religious and political extremism, and to credit them with the 'Religious' part, is doing a great injustice to TRUE Muslims.

In my opinion.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Atheists surely make the best theologians (in terms of sociology), as anyone who is actually subscribed to one religion is going to be, undoubtedly, biased...

I suppose from a spiritual point of view rather than sociological, the best theologians would be agnostics?

Hmmm.


Anyway, I've fixed the thread title to reflect the only thing that really matters:

There is NO answer to that T.S.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Youtube video

you start with a cult and say if you leave you must die and its easy to see why extreme views start to occur

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Will you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what I write, because NOWHERE did I say that such surveys were of "all Muslims" - I distinctly said; " Your knowledge of this particular emboldened point is then, far more authorative than the results of a number of recent surveys which show that ISIS and other Islamic Extrememist Terrorist organisations DO HAVE varying degrees of sympathy and support amongst a number of 'ordinary' Muslims? "

Then don't be so vague, how many surveys? how many were surveyed? What constitutes an 'ordinary Muslim'?

I am also aware, that there are "many inciteful or hateful references" in many religious texts, and that this fact has been explored in other threads, but you must be also aware - having debated on such threads with me - that Old Testament violence is 'closed-ended' violence which is era specific, ie; no idiotic Jewish extremists can claim to be following Old Testament Scripture by going out and slaying 'Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites' -- chiefly because no such peoples still exist.

The passages of violence in the Qran however, though historical, are 'open-ended' and are still capabable of being seized upon today by Islamic Terrorists to try to justify their evil acts as being the 'Will of Allah'.

Any fundamentalist could at any point seize upon any scripture, none are closed ended as they are open to interpretation imo.

Now we KNOW and the huge majority of peace-loving moderate Muslims KNOW, that the terrorists are NOT religious, though Muslim by name, and that their evil campaign has NOTHING to do with Allah.

The above being true, the actions of ISIS or any other Islamic Extremist Terrorist organisation cannot be any 'Perfect Storm' of religious and political extremism, and to credit them with the 'Religious' part, is doing a great injustice to TRUE Muslims.

In my opinion.

It is,that is the issue isn't it? and the reason why Muslims are facing the injustice of being aligned with extremists.

( sorry for the look of the post but seemed the easiest way to answer the individual points)

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by Joseph the Carpenter

Youtube video

you start with a cult and say if you leave you must die and its easy to see why extreme views start to occur

100 %
Well said LT.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I sort of agree. You can say that you disagree with their reading of the Quran and their interpretation of Islam but to say they are not Muslims? The most powerful extremist leaders tend to be extremely devout and dedicate their lives to studying their religion: its inconvenient that that has led them to believe in terrible things but it doesn't make it any less true.

I don't say that to beat on Islam: some of the most inspirational and progressive people in the world were/are Muslims who have a completely different understanding of their faith and have studied it just as much. And obviously its worth repeating that the vast majority of Muslims lean more towards this group than the extremists. But I am a Westerner from a Christian country with no understanding of Islam so its not my place to say what the religion is all about. It just shouldn't be surprising that Islam - like Christianity - can mean hundreds of different things to different people and at different times in different places. There is no one true understanding of any religion.

..this is completely true, we all interpret differently and take differently depending on the people we are and depending on times and places etc...someone who could be radicalised, may be susceptible to that at one time and one place in their lives but not necessarily at another time or place...I found this quite interesting actually because it is the voice of a Muslim, only one voice I know and only one take and opinion but interesting to the thread because he is seeing those 'different Islams' and worried about which could be being taught to his children...

An emotional call from a Muslim father rendered Katie Hopkins speechless during a radio phone-in.

The man, named only as Ali, called into Hopkins' LBC programme during a debate about radicalisation in Britain's Muslim community.

He spoke of the need for integration between non-Muslims and those of Islamic faith, before complimenting the Mail Online writer by telling her he felt more comfortable speaking with her than some members of his own community.

During a segment devoted to the news that some Muslim community leaders have refused to take part in the government's Prevent anti-radicalisation programme, Hopkins asked: "Ali, what's your argument?"

He said: "We should keep (suspected radical Islamists) in the UK but increase their scrutiny.

"I remember growing up we did not have all these segregated communities which we have now.

"The Muslim community became more and more radicalised. Why did that occur? Because we did not monitor who was coming into the mosques."

"I am a Muslim but I do not go to the mosque on a regular basis," Ali said, "I would be scared to send my kids to the mosque because no one knows what they're going to do to them there.

"I don't know what they're listening to.

"It's about time for Muslims to realise there is a problem in the Muslim community... I'm a proud Muslim, I'm a practicing Muslim, when you're going into the mainstream people don't say for fear of offending somebody."

Hopkins responded: "Ali I'm really struck by this... you're more confident speaking to somebody like me or someone else on the radio about how you feel than you would approaching someone within the Muslim community because you don't quite know which part they come from now?"

"I don't who they are and I don't know what their views are."






http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_8881382.html

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..this is completely true, we all interpret differently and take differently depending on the people we are and depending on times and places etc...someone who could be radicalised, may be susceptible to that at one time and one place in their lives but not necessarily at another time or place...I found this quite interesting actually because it is the voice of a Muslim, only one voice I know and only one take and opinion but interesting to the thread because he is seeing those 'different Islams' and worried about which could be being taught to his children...

An emotional call from a Muslim father rendered Katie Hopkins speechless during a radio phone-in.

The man, named only as Ali, called into Hopkins' LBC programme during a debate about radicalisation in Britain's Muslim community.

He spoke of the need for integration between non-Muslims and those of Islamic faith, before complimenting the Mail Online writer by telling her he felt more comfortable speaking with her than some members of his own community.

During a segment devoted to the news that some Muslim community leaders have refused to take part in the government's Prevent anti-radicalisation programme, Hopkins asked: "Ali, what's your argument?"

He said: "We should keep (suspected radical Islamists) in the UK but increase their scrutiny.

"I remember growing up we did not have all these segregated communities which we have now.

"The Muslim community became more and more radicalised. Why did that occur? Because we did not monitor who was coming into the mosques."

"I am a Muslim but I do not go to the mosque on a regular basis," Ali said, "I would be scared to send my kids to the mosque because no one knows what they're going to do to them there.

"I don't know what they're listening to.

"It's about time for Muslims to realise there is a problem in the Muslim community... I'm a proud Muslim, I'm a practicing Muslim, when you're going into the mainstream people don't say for fear of offending somebody."

Hopkins responded: "Ali I'm really struck by this... you're more confident speaking to somebody like me or someone else on the radio about how you feel than you would approaching someone within the Muslim community because you don't quite know which part they come from now?"

"I don't who they are and I don't know what their views are."






http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_8881382.html

What a very enlightening post. My applause to Ali.