[Toy Soldier]

I'm not a huge fan of it to be honest. I get that it can "protect" people but... does it? Really? It shelters them, I suppose, if that counts.

Basically, people feeling like they are "not allowed" to say certain things or share certain views does not stop them from having those views, tucked away in their horrible little heads. They just keep them zipped up. And THAT is why I don't like it. I would like to know the unbridled opinions of anyone I meet, thankyouplease, up front and in my face, so that I can quickly decide which ones are or aren't worth my time.

There's not much worse than thinking you know someoneone and getting on alright with them, and then being suddenly confronted with the fact that they are a bigoted little arsehole undearneath the veneer. I'd rather just know from the start, so that I can say "Yeah. You're a bigoted little arsehole, kindly **** off. Bye."

That would be the real beauty of such a world. People would freely express their horrible, festering little opinions and then others would be free to rip them to ****ing shreds and laugh about it... and they couldn't start bawling about it... which is what weasly little bigots like to do, in my experience.

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not a huge fan of it to be honest. I get that it can "protect" people but... does it? Really? It shelters them, I suppose, if that counts.

Basically, people feeling like they are "not allowed" to say certain things or share certain views does not stop them from having those views, tucked away in their horrible little heads. They just keep them zipped up. And THAT is why I don't like it. I would like to know the unbridled opinions of anyone I meet, thankyouplease, up front and in my face, so that I can quickly decide which ones are or aren't worth my time.

There's not much worse than thinking you know someoneone and getting on alright with them, and then being suddenly confronted with the fact that they are a bigoted little arsehole undearneath the veneer. I'd rather just know from the start, so that I can say "Yeah. You're a bigoted little arsehole, kindly **** off. Bye."

That would be the real beauty of such a world. People would freely express their horrible, festering little opinions and then others would be free to rip them to ****ing shreds and laugh about it... and they couldn't start bawling about it... which is what weasly little bigots like to do, in my experience.

You sound so like Brookmyre in that rant. Love it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not a huge fan of it to be honest. I get that it can "protect" people but... does it? Really? It shelters them, I suppose, if that counts.

Basically, people feeling like they are "not allowed" to say certain things or share certain views does not stop them from having those views, tucked away in their horrible little heads. They just keep them zipped up. And THAT is why I don't like it. I would like to know the unbridled opinions of anyone I meet, thankyouplease, up front and in my face, so that I can quickly decide which ones are or aren't worth my time.

There's not much worse than thinking you know someoneone and getting on alright with them, and then being suddenly confronted with the fact that they are a bigoted little arsehole undearneath the veneer. I'd rather just know from the start, so that I can say "Yeah. You're a bigoted little arsehole, kindly **** off. Bye."

That would be the real beauty of such a world. People would freely express their horrible, festering little opinions and then others would be free to rip them to ****ing shreds and laugh about it... and they couldn't start bawling about it... which is what weasly little bigots like to do, in my experience.

....hmmm, but what would that achieve though, that seems more of a 'personal satisfaction' thing but to me, wouldn't change anything that is the 'whole point' of prejudice/bigotry etc...it just puts someone into a defensive situation, rather than to keep the focus on prejudice and trying to change mind-sets etc..that can only be done through communication, rather than 'calling out'...and isn't that the 'bigger picture', that prejudice/intolerances etc are still very much in existence and really shouldn't be....


..like others, I don't think that 'PC' should be something that exists/that is needed...but is it less about 'wording' and how something is phrased and more that these prejudices still exist and even worded a different way, they'll still exist...but on the other hand, I guess PC has to exist because the internet exists...it's often said that 'back in the day' we didn't have PC and we could say......................and it was ok, but now it's ridiculous because we can't say otherwise we're called racist/homophobic etc...well, that's not true at all, it was never right back in the day either, it wasn't really perceived as anything different and not 'called out' as anything different..it's not a new invention but the age of the internet and technology/communication is and the age of the 'keyboard warrior' as well....people should be able to 'self PC' and to not be racist and to not be homophobic and to not be rude and to not be offensive etc and because that's there thought process to be non of those things, not because they're thinking of 'acceptable wording'....but that's probably not going to ever happen, is it because all these things have always been and probably sadly always will be...


..also I understand the 'OTT' thing and examples you gave DR...but for instance with bin men and waste management technicians...?..(again those 'formal names for jobs people do always existed as well but it's just that people used the terms that were a little more 'understandable' in describing a job..)...I guess it's more now that people are more encouraged to use them/the 'formal/full job description' ones....because certain jobs through time and with some people have been used as a way to insult in thinking lesser of a person because of the job they do...(a job that those people wouldn't do themselves no doubt because they feel it beneath them and yet have no respect for those that do them..)...so maybe feel OTT but ere intended to 'protect' from those who have no respect and who would use as an insult/put down....

[Ammi]

..but the 'attack' first of the, oh I'm sure the PC brigade will come rushing out now because I'm going to say this, is really just (I think..)..a self knowledge of someone's prejudice, that they are aware of it ..and rather than 'shoot them down', I think the opening of a questioning of it/those views and prejudice etc rather than outbursts of accusations back...


..and forth and back and forth and back.....

[Toy Soldier]

You're an optimist though Ammi, not an angry ol' cynic like me. I personally don't think people ever really change. Not through conversation and persuasion anyway - major life incidents can change a person but that's something different, and rare.

In general, people's opinions, good and bad, are forged early and simply don't change. For that reason I'd just prefer people to wear their opinions on their sleeves so that I know who to bother investing time in and who to avoid.

I mean yes, you can usually figure out quite quickly what someone is vaguely about, but I can actually think of multiple occasions where I've known someone a while and then been slapped in the face with some nasty racist / homophobic crap that I'd never have guessed would come from them. I'd rather just know up front than have people hide it because they "have to". It's not real acceptance. The prejudice still exists... It's just silent and often then becomes even more insidious.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're an optimist though Ammi, not an angry ol' cynic like me. I personally don't think people ever really change. Not through conversation and persuasion anyway - major life incidents can change a person but that's something different, and rare.

In general, people's opinions, good and bad, are forged early and simply don't change. For that reason I'd just prefer people to wear their opinions on their sleeves so that I know who to bother investing time in and who to avoid.

I mean yes, you can usually figure out quite quickly what someone is vaguely about, but I can actually think of multiple occasions where I've known someone a while and then been slapped in the face with some nasty racist / homophobic crap that I'd never have guessed would come from them. I'd rather just know up front than have people hide it because they "have to". It's not real acceptance. The prejudice still exists... It's just silent and often then becomes even more insidious.

...hmm, I'm still thinking about this but it just seems to me to be 'fighting' the same with the same...'I don't care about PC because I will just darn well say what I think' (a sense of personal satisfaction, you could say..?..)...'well I will just darn well label you, then because that's what says about you'..(a sense of personal satisfaction, you could say..?...)...and there prejudices are and still remain (the whole point and focus..)...stuck in the mud and forgotten in it all...because people/both 'sides' want to say what they want to say and feel very in their right to do so....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You're an optimist though Ammi, not an angry ol' cynic like me. I personally don't think people ever really change. Not through conversation and persuasion anyway - major life incidents can change a person but that's something different, and rare.

In general, people's opinions, good and bad, are forged early and simply don't change. For that reason I'd just prefer people to wear their opinions on their sleeves so that I know who to bother investing time in and who to avoid.

I mean yes, you can usually figure out quite quickly what someone is vaguely about, but I can actually think of multiple occasions where I've known someone a while and then been slapped in the face with some nasty racist / homophobic crap that I'd never have guessed would come from them. I'd rather just know up front than have people hide it because they "have to". It's not real acceptance. The prejudice still exists... It's just silent and often then becomes even more insidious.

..I actually don't believe that 'angry ol cynic' either...yes, sometimes you can be (occasionally....)...and life experiences etc, there is that in all of us anyway...'things that push our buttons' because of personal associations...but I also see a very shiny optimist in there as well trying to burst out...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I actually don't believe that 'angry ol cynic' either...yes, sometimes you can be (occasionally....)...and life experiences etc, there is that in all of us anyway...'things that push our buttons' because of personal associations...but I also see a very shiny optimist in there as well trying to burst out...

Humbug! That's just your optimism talking.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean yes, you can usually figure out quite quickly what someone is vaguely about, but I can actually think of multiple occasions where I've known someone a while and then been slapped in the face with some nasty racist / homophobic crap that I'd never have guessed would come from them. I'd rather just know up front than have people hide it because they "have to". It's not real acceptance. The prejudice still exists... It's just silent and often then becomes even more insidious.

Me and the other half were talking about this last night. We'd gone out for a drink with a bunch of friends, one of which is quite new to our group. We have all invested time in this person but last night after one too many he became racially abusive. None of us were aware that he had this underlying grudge against certain races and religions and it was disappointing to discover we didn't want to be around what was otherwise a fun guy. Up until now he'd walked on eggshells weighing us up and now, if we spend any more time with him, we have to walk on eggshells not to bring any topic up that will have him going off on one.

I'd rather know than not know about a person like that.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Humbug! That's just your optimism talking.

..actually I went off and came back again.....because the 'optimist' bit did bug me a bit, I don't see myself as an optimist' anymore than anyone else..(I think) it's more a realist...yeah, we can all say..I'll say whatever I like and not be PCed over ..and then get back, well I can call you for what you are, then so that's fine...but that won't work and it won't work because it hasn't worked...all there is after that is two people with no respect for each other...I'm sure that you're right TS or maybe you're right..that it's doubtful of many mind-sets being changed but it leaves more of possibility open of that happening...and for every 20 or whatever people that we may experience in our lives who show prejudice/racism/homophobia etc...with the 'calling out' thing, all I think is that 20 people will still remain with their prejudices but with another moan and groan about 'PC' as well....whereas if only one mind-set could be changed through not calling out, then there would only be 19 people, instead of 20 and one person maybe thinking about their views and questioning them...?....

...there was a video I watched recently and the gist of it was that not being racist ourselves is not enough, it's also not walking away from racism in the knowledge that it's there...(obviously we all have knowledge that it's there..)...but if you or any of us walk away and say bye, you're a bigot etc and not someone I want to communicate with.. then surely that's walking away from prejudice and just leaving it there, there to deepen and maybe spread as well.....just 'distancing' from it and distancing isn't 'facing reality' of something existing...better to try and understand it surely, those fears/'uneducation' etc that are often the cause...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...there was a video I watched recently and the gist of it was that not being racist ourselves is not enough, it's also not walking away from racism in the knowledge that it's there...(obviously we all have knowledge that it's there..)...but if you or any of us walk away and say bye, you're a bigot etc and not someone I want to communicate with.. then surely that's walking away from prejudice and just leaving it there, there to deepen and maybe spread as well.....just 'distancing' from it and distancing isn't 'facing reality' of something existing...better to try and understand it surely, those fears/'uneducation' etc that are often the cause...

This makes sense to a point but the problem I have with that is, I've learnt never to rely on my own expectations. I've had to accept that I can rarely change peoples opinions and if I try, ill just end up in a depressingly frustrating place. We can educate people about why we have the opinion we do, provided they want to be educated but when it comes to things like racism, people tend to be entrenched in their already dyed in the wool opinion and lived with those thoughts since they were old enough to understand their parent/s own prejudices. Taking away those opinions also takes away the safety net of all those friendships they have forged with like minded people.

There's a man I work with who is a long established islamophobic. He's always trying to educate us about why he's that way but most of us just roll our eyes and tell him to shut up. Every time someone puts their view across to him he, just like them has a barrage of ammunition to back up his side of the argument.

[Northern Monkey]

I think shutting down other peoples views just because you don't agree with them is counter productive and just creates more resentment.In a free society we should all be able to put forward our perspective and be challenged on it.Banning words,nursery rhymes,Christmas,black boards etc and wrapping everyone up in cotton wool just creates more resentment and does'nt change anyones views imo."Ooh you can't say that,That's not very PC" is just going to stir up more anger and hatred.Take Islamaphobia for instance.If people who are already 'suspicious' of all muslims are told that their local community centre/shops/whatever are not allowed to have banners saying "Merry Christmas" anymore because it's not inclusive of other religions then that 'suspicion' they already carry can turn into anger which as we all know leads to the Dark Side.Political correctness is not beneficial imo as it just shuts down opinions rather than challenging them.

[jennyjuniper]

It's a bit like communism. The theory is fine, but in practise it's abused far too often.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

This makes sense to a point but the problem I have with that is, I've learnt never to rely on my own expectations. I've had to accept that I can rarely change peoples opinions and if I try, ill just end up in a depressingly frustrating place. We can educate people about why we have the opinion we do, provided they want to be educated but when it comes to things like racism, people tend to be entrenched in their already dyed in the wool opinion and lived with those thoughts since they were old enough to understand their parent/s own prejudices. Taking away those opinions also takes away the safety net of all those friendships they have forged with like minded people.

There's a man I work with who is a long established islamophobic. He's always trying to educate us about why he's that way but most of us just roll our eyes and tell him to shut up. Every time someone puts their view across to him he, just like them has a barrage of ammunition to back up his side of the argument.

..yeah I do understand and any communications have to be a two way thing as well don't they...not as in both speaking their opinions but there has to be an open to listening as well and then the complications also of ..there are times when we are open to listening and absorbing and there are times when we are not...it's like waiting for our children/toddlers etc to calm and finish their 'rant' before we try to talk to them because in the middle of or when still in the mode of, is only going to be confrontational and no one is going to be absorbing....so I do see that it's not always possible either....and I also see that many mind-sets won't be changed...especially mind-sets that are older and over much time and life experiences etc...but there are others I think that are very limited and their judgments/prejudice very limited because lack of balance of influences and balance in their lives so I guess I still think it's worth trying to communicate in the 'if only one person we meet were to question' themselves/way...and a possible different opinion reached...then that would be one less prejudice/bigoted view, you know...there are so many things that are beyond our capabilities do anything at all about and you're right..for the most part, other people's thoughts and views are one of them/we only have control over ourselves etc.. so there is sense also in the 'walking away from'....but for me personally that wouldn't sit right either/maybe I'm just a stubborn and persistent person.../which is also probably true....

[Ammi]

..I guess as well DR, that vid I watched really hit me and made me personally think so much...'if you walk away from racism, then because it's just being left there, are you yourself racist'..not you, personally I don't mean but that was the gist of it and the question being asked to us all because it's not enough to be aware of it, appalled by it/offended by it etc and totally lacking of all understanding of how people can have those mind-sets...but we 'should do' as well....and I just don't think that 'calling out' is 'doing'....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jennyjuniper

It's a bit like communism. The theory is fine, but in practise it's abused far too often.

Or capitalism?

[DemolitionRed]

I do get what you're saying Ammi. Patience really is a virtue and being a school teacher you probably have more patience than me.

If I expect my work colleague to listen to me, then he should expect me to listen to him and this is where my flexibilities falter because I find that bit really difficult. There is nothing more emotional than a deeply held belief being challenged and this is why people on these boards so often get upset, frustrated and even angry. I suppose the key thing is, we need to reduce the threat of a challenge and that would mean listening and trying to understand why they view things the way they do. In turn, that person needs to listen and understand why I view things the way I do...problem solved. Whilst neither of us will probably change one another's view, we will both come away with a better understanding.

[Kizzy]

Oh foff to all these whispering voices dripping the same poison in ears from the cradle to the grave. I saw the vid that suggests if you do nothing about racism but profess you are not racist it's not enough.
It should be enough, having your strong beliefs is enough... it should be an accepted social norm in the west.
If you became more extreme in those views then that would and does attract negative labels to your cause, that seems to be how its working. Mr Orwell suggests that pacifism is pro fascism which is a similar message, however it doesn't allow for modern day neoliberal spin.
Any progressive protest is packaged as subversive civil disobedience, militant, aggressive, anti-democratic and the ultimate insult....leftist.

The mantra of modern media 'If you can occupy peoples' heads, their hearts and their hands will follow.'
Where's our societal head at that our own PM can make overtly racist comments and it pass unchallenged and yet the rest of us must wrestle with our consciences?
Because he is representative of the establishment and they can never be seen as wrong, everything they do is for the greater good...isn't it?