[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

less than the majority

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

You only disagree because of your political leanings, youre ignoring the FACTS. so you Disagree? You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS? pls explain how you disagree with these FACTS and this comprehensive independent survey? pls back it up with your FACTS to counter these FACTS. Its you against 300,000 patients

Oh don't talk as if you know me please, I have supported the Conservative party as to the NHS in the past and would do any party if I believed them right.

I think with respect you are talking about yourself more than me since all you can do is run Labour down and blame them for everything.
Also your posts over the years on here show not the slightest bit of respect or appreciation anyway for NHS staff.

Yes I do disagree with what you say as I have not seen a single independent survey that supports what you say.
There is emergency cover 7 days a week now in the NHS,yes there may be problems at certain periods but you do not solve that by taking care away other days of the week and stretching it out even more over 7 days.

More Doctors are needed, not fewer and this imposing of this contract will inevitably lose Doctors possibly on a scale not seen before,then it will not be weekend care to worry about,it will be all week care to worry over.
Junior Doctors have not taken this decision lightly and even your man Nigel Farage said on QT that the govt was right to want to have 7 day full care but they had gone about it totally the wrong way.

You do not get the goodwill and support for change if you alienate the people you need to supply it, that is what imposing this contract will do and it may yet even lead to even more dissent in the NHS.

As for your independent surveys, you carefully avoid the other point they make in surveys that there would be no guarantee whatsoever that even more care at weekends would have avoided any increase in any of the deaths.
Another said it was in partly down to those taking Strokes,often elderly and some health authorities have looked at more rapid response and treatment for such cases already, outside this new contract of the govts.


No one would disagree that all in the NHS is not perfect, of course it isn't, it still is underfunded and being so massive, errors will occur, they occur far more in much smaller organisations than the NHS.
This contract, which will alienate further vital junior Doctors, and Consultants too who once junior Doctors start leaving, where likely nursing staff will too, already demoralised from the top down re-organisation, find greater workloads.
That will bring likely a great deal more problems as to care across the board in the NHS.

I really think Vicky hit this on the head earlier in this thread, when she said this could be a move to so shatter the NHS as it stands whereby it is privatised.
Already the lies are in place, I said earlier, the govts negotiator in a report said 20, yes only 20 of all the Health Authorities, supported the govt imposing this contract on junior Doctors,then it turns out that is lies, as already at least 10 of them have said they do not agree with imposing the contract and want their signatures removed.

You are very 'rightly' quick to get at Blair and the Labour govt as to lying on Iraq, well a lot of misleading and lies are being tried on this junior Doctors contract, not at all from the Doctors but from this govt.
Also for goodness sake,300,000 patients, how many millions are treated by the NHS week in week out and how many of those millions,not hundreds of thousands are grateful for the care they received any day of the week.
Yes errors need to be stopped as much as is humanly possible,yes care always needs to be looked at across the board,yes too stern action must be taken when serious errors occur.
However the best way to achieve all that is to have those who have to provide the care properly consulted and in agreement.
Not take a dictatorial stance and demand people do as they are told or go.

A Doctor is a vital and precious being to have in the NHS,alienating them and losing them is the most negative and pointless thing to even think of risking doing.
Yet that is what Hunt and this govt are doing and risking if they impose this contract.

I have maintained on here my view from joining in 2010, that the NHS should not be a political football, no single party has 100% the right policies for it.
I have always said the NHS should be out of party politics and its running decided on a consensual policy to build up and support not keep bringing it down by constant unnecessary change.
I still say that is the better way for the NHS.

That is why I agreed with Andy Burnham,he wanted a more consensual approach to the NHS and also to bring together the social and health issues into the NHS system as to care too.
He and the Lib Dems in fact worked on that and talked about it in 2009/10, he wanted all parties involved but the Conservative Andrew Lansley walked away from it
.
I thought the deceit of the top down re-organisation was bad enough but now this,this is simply a disgrace and far beyond any defence as to this particular govt at all.
So sorry I will not join your personal angst against the NHS,I see it as one of the best things the UK has and I would hope to see it, and its Staff, at all levels being supported by politicians not dictated to by them.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?

no burying your head in the sand while innocent thousand die of neglect on the weekends.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

less than the majority

So 'the majority' work through the week and 'the minority' at weekends?... Sorry that's a tad simplistic, and not the issue surrounding the new jr doctors contract.

[DemolitionRed]

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS?

They are only facts that more people die at the weekend but the statistics are Friday to Monday not just Saturday and Sunday. Those statistics don't suggest its lack of junior doctors as a contribution.

[Kizzy]

Wow...

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt held a drinks and canapés evening despite doctors who had planned to attend being told it was cancelled.

Those hoping to attend the event on Friday at a hotel in Fareham, Hampshire, were told the event had been cancelled.
Some junior doctors and their supporters had said it may be worthwhile to buy tickets to engage Mr Hunt in a debate about his controversial new employment contract.

Doctors who had paid Ł15 for the event later found out it had quietly been moved to another location, with those in attendance being checked to ensure they hadn't brought any medics with them.

Dr Kathryn Carey-Jones wrote on Facebook: “ I could have accepted being told I am not allowed to attend given recent events, but I was lied to, to keep me away ...
"This is dishonesty at its best and would not be accepted from a doctor to a politician. If this is the way the local Conservatives treat their local doctors, what can we expect from the rest? Imagine if we lied to the public like this ...”

GP Emma Nash told Portsmouth News a friend she was going with, a Conservative party member, was refused access to the venue until she convinced the organisers there were no doctors with her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6873546.html

[DemolitionRed]

laughs. Maybe we just need to give him a shovel.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So 'the majority' work through the week and 'the minority' at weekends?... Sorry that's a tad simplistic, and not the issue surrounding the new jr doctors contract.

that's whats happening, those are the facts , you simply living in denial

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

They are only facts that more people die at the weekend but the statistics are Friday to Monday not just Saturday and Sunday. Those statistics don't suggest its lack of junior doctors as a contribution.

wrong. people admitted on a sunday are 16% more likely to die than those admitted on a Wednesday. clearly that is directly attributable to the skeleton staff on weekends. common sense , decency and a sense of morality must be shown and something major had to be done, the tories had the guts and morality to do something, the labour cowards did nothing and let innocent thousands die of neglect.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

That's silliest post you ever written. youre trying to say the fact youre 16% more likely to die when admitted on a sunday than on a Wednesday has nothing to do with the fact there is skeleton staff on a sunday compared to Wednesday? youre in denial , youre fudging and hiding from the truth and reality and frankly youre lying to youself. no doubt if you had a close family member who had died on a sunday through not being able to get the full and proper medical attention you get in the midweek you would think very very differently.

your point about junior doctors is untrue. only SOME junior doctors work weekends, the majority do not. the other staff you mention will be shortly be put on similar work rotas to get the 24 hour care promosed

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day?

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

The way it is worded makes not much sense though?

Its all about dying within 30 days of admission date right? So again, if someone was admitted on a Sunday, but then died later in the week...would this class as a Sunday death (or % ) for the sake of the poll? Because if this is how it works, it actually proves nothing given they didn't even die at the weekend, they were just admitted then? They could have survived 3 weeksned and then died midweek...if that makes sense?

Or have I got it totally wrong and its nothing to do with 30 days and they die ON the day they are admitted?

I'm not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely don't understand the way its all worded

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

that's whats happening, those are the facts , you simply living in denial

What facts? you've shown me no facts on how many Drs are rostered weekend and weekdays to give your theory any credence.

[Vicky.]

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

You had to mention nurses didn't you ?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You had to mention nurses didn't you ?

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

Never ever had an issue with a nurse bar a very slight problem with one who tried to tell me that getting IV morphine was exactly the same (both pain relief and time to kick in) as taking 2 30mg CODEINE!!! Had never heard such tosh in my life. It did turn out that one of the other nurses was off and my nurse was trying to cut her own workload (didn't want to be faffing about with IV stuff, although I already had a line in...) but come on. I am not ****ing stupid. Just be honest with me

[the truth]

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

again the contract you hate (simply because youre anti tory) will help in reducing the need for agency workers, for reasons outlined in my last post

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

There is no funding for staffing and yet fines for not having adequate staffing levels, therefore agency is relied on. How is this a BMA issue? It's down to trusts.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

again the contract you hate (simply because youre anti tory) will help in reducing the need for agency workers, for reasons outlined in my last post

Nope My sis is a band 5 who recently qualified as an ANP, she knows the ins and out of trusts and the issues they face.