[Beso]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Do you believe that we should come out of the EU or do you believe that we should stay in?

Please answer and give your reasons.

Out, just to spice things up a bit...lifes boring atm and needs a kick up the arse.

[bots]

I feel being in the EU gives us more of an affinity with those affected by these events, and the same would be true with our EU partners if something were to happen to us.

What I have noticed is that the out team are taking a snapshot of the EU now and saying its crap, we want nothing to do with it. Whereas the truth is, that its constantly evolving. There may well be immigration issues now, it doesn't mean it will be this way in 20 years. We can help shape it. We can't shape anything if we are out, we will only ever be reacting to whatever everyone else is doing.

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?

You depress me

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I feel being in the EU gives us more of an affinity with those affected by these events, and the same would be true with our EU partners if something were to happen to us.

What I have noticed is that the out team are taking a snapshot of the EU now and saying its crap, we want nothing to do with it. Whereas the truth is, that its constantly evolving. There may well be immigration issues now, it doesn't mean it will be this way in 20 years. We can help shape it. We can't shape anything if we are out, we will only ever be reacting to whatever everyone else is doing.

I totally agree with all you say above.
Again you do it in a strong and concise way too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

You depress me

Thanks as an ex goth it makes me so happy to know that.

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thanks as an ex goth it makes me so happy to know that.

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

I’m going to vote to remain in but only because I trust the EU more than I trust our undemocratic government.
There are so many positives to leaving the EU but with this present government, what we will get is unbridled corporate power, unhindered tax evasion, longer working weeks and less workers rights.

Edited to say: and we’d lose Scotland and possibly Whales and Northern Ireland.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

Good for you, what has that to do with the EU though?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And what of the terrorist attacks that have happened outside Europe, are you going to suggest we remove ourselves from the world? What if we out trumped trump and all live under a nice shiny dome?

I think that Alf's very valid point is; that yet another of the 'IN' camp's B.S. claims; that 'we are safer from being in the EU' has been exposed as yet another lie.

The EU has PROVED that it is INCAPABALE of keeping the peace both inside and outside its borders and it is NATO - with the USA backing - who HAVE kept the peace in Europe NOT the EU.

It was NATO not the EU who maintained peace and stability in Post WW2 Europe and during the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

From The BALKANS in the 1990's to LIBYA it is NATO who have taken the initiative after the EU did NOTHING.

Real peace in the Balkans is still not established, but the EU is continually reducing its 'peace-keeping mission' there increasing the likelyhood of the uneasy stability in Bosnia collapsing.

Despite it being in “Europe’s interest” to intervene in Libya, it was, again, NATO and the U.S. who took the initiative and acted positively, with the EU's pathetic contribution being only "a skeleton of a military headquarters in Italy at the cost of almost € 8 million". The EU's much boasted of "Military Humanitarian Mission there DID NOT HAPPEN and NATO had already "facilitated the liberation of Libya" while the EU procrastinated.

As ex Home Secretary Lord Howard said last night;

THE EU IS A FLAWED PROJECT FAILING TO KEEP ITS PEOPLE SAFE and the thoroughly FAILED SCHENGEN FIASCO is like 'HANGING A SIGN WELCOMING TERRORISTS TO EUROPE'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ts-Europe.html

VOTE 'OUT' IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

Good stay as dark as you like ! I am an ex goth too but not as dark and depressing- Oh yeah people like me

I don't like you HiJax - I LOVE YOU.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

To the undecided on this thread.
May I please ask, and naturally no one need answer if they don't wish to, there are 6 names here who felt and maybe still do feel undecided.

Has anything from either camp Nationally or over the media,addressed any of the doubts,concerns and questions they may have or had.

The undecided are the important people as to the whole debate of being in or out,and I was just curious as to whether those who started off in this poll as being undecided have felt any strong inclination now either way as time has gone on.

Good question Joey. I'm still undecided but to be honest it's just because I still need to spend more time really going over all the information which I haven't had the chance to do properly yet. I want to be fully informed before making a decision but I've never really understood the EU before/what all the pros and cons are, it's just been something that we've been a part of and I've thought we'd always be a part of it and I've accepted it without ever really questioning it's merits. I'll say though that I started out leaning towards wanting to remain whereas now I'm leaning more towards voting out.

Originally Posted by Alf

To the undecided, just look at what happened today, and ask yourself, are we really safer in Europe's free movement? or would we be safer by controlling our own borders?

For me it's about more than border control, there are so many ways in which it will impact us, I can't vote to leave on one issue alone. I also don't like the idea of voting a particular way out of fear of terrorism. So for me, I don't think the events in Brussels will impact my vote.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by hijaxers

You depress me

Kizzy is not for the faint hearted

[Cherie]

The difficulty for me us one side will put forward an argument, the other side will dismiss it as scaremongering without backing it up with any relevant facts, this happens on both sides of the argument so I am as uncertain as I was at the start I mightn't vote on it as it stands

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I think that Alf's very valid point is; that yet another of the 'IN' camp's B.S. claims; that 'we are safer from being in the EU' has been exposed as yet another lie.

The EU has PROVED that it is INCAPABALE of keeping the peace both inside and outside its borders and it is NATO - with the USA backing - who HAVE kept the peace in Europe NOT the EU.

It was NATO not the EU who maintained peace and stability in Post WW2 Europe and during the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

From The BALKANS in the 1990's to LIBYA it is NATO who have taken the initiative after the EU did NOTHING.

Real peace in the Balkans is still not established, but the EU is continually reducing its 'peace-keeping mission' there increasing the likelyhood of the uneasy stability in Bosnia collapsing.

Despite it being in “Europe’s interest” to intervene in Libya, it was, again, NATO and the U.S. who took the initiative and acted positively, with the EU's pathetic contribution being only "a skeleton of a military headquarters in Italy at the cost of almost € 8 million". The EU's much boasted of "Military Humanitarian Mission there DID NOT HAPPEN and NATO had already "facilitated the liberation of Libya" while the EU procrastinated.

As ex Home Secretary Lord Howard said last night;

THE EU IS A FLAWED PROJECT FAILING TO KEEP ITS PEOPLE SAFE and the thoroughly FAILED SCHENGEN FIASCO is like 'HANGING A SIGN WELCOMING TERRORISTS TO EUROPE'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ts-Europe.html

VOTE 'OUT' IF YOU VALUE YOUR FUTURE OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT. OUT.

By the same token it's failed 'out' bs that suggests it's the fault of the EU we are a target. It is our own foreign policies which saw this happen in my opinion, could it be due to the fact we are in NATO not the EU?
Notice we are getting very pally pally with Malta, they are in Europe but not NATO...hmmmm.
We are not in Schengen, which before destabilisation worked well for those countries in it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Kizzy is not for the faint hearted

I'm not here for the fame (good job judging by my last most loved position)

[Livia]

Thank God we opted out of the Schengen agreement; if we hadn't I'm convinced that we would have had at least one Paris/Brussels style atrocity here. Border control is the biggest topic, as far as I can see, that makes people want to leave the EU. And I know a large proportion of terrorist recently have been home grown, but not exclusively and more IS people are arriving every day in the guise of refugees. If I was leading IS, I'd make sure that as many of my people as possible were among the refugees. And look at the freedom that Salah Abdeslam had to move backwards and forwards between Belgium and France. In a time of high terrorist risk, to continue to have open borders is r i d i c u l o u s.

[Kizzy]

Why us, what about the countries which are in Schengen which have not been targeted?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

By the same token it's failed 'out' bs that suggests it's the fault of the EU we are a target. It is our own foreign policies which saw this happen in my opinion, could it be due to the fact we are in NATO not the EU?
Notice we are getting very pally pally with Malta, they are in Europe but not NATO...hmmmm.
We are not in Schengen, which before destabilisation worked well for those countries in it.

All good points Kizzy.

We, the UK, are not safe either in or out of the EU anyway because of our involvement,'without' the rest of the EU too but because of our involvement with the USA plans for the Middle East.


So we are told many plots have bee foiled in the UK and more will be but it is likely inevitable, in or out,that we will have an atrocity such as the likely of Paris and Brussels.

I repeat again, in or out, will not make us particularly safer either way however the message sent to the likes of IS of the UK splitting from its much closer ties with Europe is not one I personally want IS to get or see.
So for me, just my view,I prefer the unity we have and show with Europe with the EU Nations against the truly grotesque likes of IS,to remain intact fully.
Not sending out any divided signals whatsoever in any way.

Just for me for one, this is not a time to be thinking of dividing and actually going for trying to stand alone.
Not saying at all we couldn't stand alone but for me, it would send another very wrong signal to these truly awful terrorist,violent irrational groups in existence.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why us, what about the countries which are in Schengen which have not been targeted?

You don't think open borders contributes to the decline in security? No... of course you don't.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You don't think open borders contributes to the decline in security? No... of course you don't.

Don't mock me or put words in my mouth please.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

All good points Kizzy.

We, the UK, are not safe either in or out of the EU anyway because of our involvement,'without' the rest of the EU too but because of our involvement with the USA plans for the Middle East.


So we are told many plots have bee foiled in the UK and more will be but it is likely inevitable, in or out,that we will have an atrocity such as the likely of Paris and Brussels.

I repeat again, in or out, will not make us particularly safer either way however the message sent to the likes of IS of the UK splitting from its much closer ties with Europe is not one I personally want IS to get or see.
So for me, just my view,I prefer the unity we have and show with Europe with the EU Nations against the truly grotesque likes of IS,to remain intact fully.
Not sending out any divided signals whatsoever in any way.

Just for me for one, this is not a time to be thinking of dividing and actually going for trying to stand alone.
Not saying at all we couldn't stand alone but for me, it would send another very wrong signal to these truly awful terrorist,violent irrational groups in existence.

Thankyou Joey, as seen modern terrorist activity has come about from the radicalisation of individuals, I feel it is this which poses the greatest threat to any western country atm.
Like you I just cannot see how becoming a sovereignty would aid us against IS in any way.
Unless we were to align with another body or state, China perhaps?

[Livia]

We're already aligned with NATO.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thank God we opted out of the Schengen agreement; if we hadn't I'm convinced that we would have had at least one Paris/Brussels style atrocity here. Border control is the biggest topic, as far as I can see, that makes people want to leave the EU. And I know a large proportion of terrorist recently have been home grown, but not exclusively and more IS people are arriving every day in the guise of refugees. If I was leading IS, I'd make sure that as many of my people as possible were among the refugees. And look at the freedom that Salah Abdeslam had to move backwards and forwards between Belgium and France. In a time of high terrorist risk, to continue to have open borders is r i d i c u l o u s.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

We're already aligned with NATO.

..... and with respect still under massive threat from the likes of IS as we would still be if we left the EU.
So really little changes.

However were we to ill advisedly ever leave NATO that would send the totally wrong and dangerous message to the likes of terrorist groups like IS and that is partly why I believe leaving the EU would also send them a wrong and dangerous message too.

At this time for me, in NATO and in the EU seems the far better places to be in my opinion.

I certainly cannot guarantee and would not do so anyway,that we would be safer in the EU but can 'you' guarantee we would be safer out of it and how.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

..... and with respect still under massive threat from the likes of IS as we would still be if we left the EU.
So really little changes.

However were we to ill advisedly ever leave NATO that would send the totally wrong and dangerous message to the likes of terrorist groups like IS and that is partly why I believe leaving the EU would also send them a wrong and dangerous message too.

At this time for me, in NATO and in the EU seems the far better places to be in my opinion.

I certainly cannot guarantee and would not do so anyway,that we would be safer in the EU but can 'you' guarantee we would be safer out of it and how.

No one can guarantee anything, joey. However, if we spent half the money we pour into Europe on a daily basis, on improving security in this country we'd all sleep safer.

All that stuff aside though, the bottom line for me is this: I do not want an unelected body making laws in my country.