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View Poll Results: Should the UK remain in the EU or leave?
Remain 30 54.55%
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30 54.55%
Leave 18 32.73%
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18 32.73%
Undecided 7 12.73%
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:38 PM #1001
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Originally Posted by joeysteele View Post
Its all driving me mad at present but Boris is really annoying.
How the outs can get away with dismissing all the in side says, then being at best inventive with their own figures they present,while never answering a single point as to all that will be required to do, how long it will take to do, and what costs and conditions will be put in place once out.
Boris is the man that said:

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“the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”
Until he saw a way to get the Tory crown he was on the side of remaining in the EU and said “The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’.” and “I would be well up for trying to make the positive case.” to stay in the EU.
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Old 18-04-2016, 09:15 PM #1002
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Yep, even his dad said it was purely tactical.
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Old 18-04-2016, 10:49 PM #1003
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Boris is the man that said:



Until he saw a way to get the Tory crown he was on the side of remaining in the EU and said “The trouble is, I am not an ‘outer’.” and “I would be well up for trying to make the positive case.” to stay in the EU.

Absolutely right,then he has the nerve to call others hypocrites.
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Old 19-04-2016, 12:48 PM #1004
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Loved what the economics expert ruth lea said the other day about the merits of a brexit..." fortune favours the flexible, the nimble inherit the earth" That's damn right
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Old 19-04-2016, 04:11 PM #1005
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Justice Secretary Michael Gove
"Best Days Ahead' After Brexit"


[Out campaigner Michael Gove has set
out his "optimistic" vision for how the
UK would look if it votes to leave the EU.]

http://news.sky.com/story/1681338/be...exit-gove-says
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Old 19-04-2016, 05:35 PM #1006
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I saw no vision of any note for me from Gove,I like him but feel he is perhaps influenced more on this issue by possibly his domestics, his wife does work for a eurosceptic paper after all too.

Nothing he said today can be fully substantiated and it really is not good just to pooh pooh all the 'in' argument while not saying all the costs and conditions if out.
Nowhere has it been said by the EU or any other body that we can have a cost free,tariff free deal with the EU if we leave.

If he thinks we can, he needs to provide the 'solid' evidence of that,from the organisations and people that can guarantee it.

Actually, this is one of the poorest speeches I have heard from Michael Gove,it seemed very weak on content and that was more than likely because it was pure supposition and had no real relevant factual information at all.
That,for me, is sad to see from him really.

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Old 19-04-2016, 06:40 PM #1007
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Posted this before... due another airing.

'I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'
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Old 19-04-2016, 08:17 PM #1008
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Osborne suggests that the average UK household will be Ł4,300 worse off in 2030 as a result of leaving the EU. Did this man not stop to think how close that figure is to the Ł4K per-household figure estimate of the actual cost of Osbourne’s needless austerity policies.... That was, apparently, a price worth paying.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...terity-mistake
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Old 19-04-2016, 08:53 PM #1009
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Originally Posted by DemolitionRed View Post
Osborne suggests that the average UK household will be Ł4,300 worse off in 2030 as a result of leaving the EU. Did this man not stop to think how close that figure is to the Ł4K per-household figure estimate of the actual cost of Osbourne’s needless austerity policies.... That was, apparently, a price worth paying.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...terity-mistake
I rarely agree with Osborne,however as to his figures as to costs of leaving the EU, although probably slightly over exaggerated in my view, I agree with him that there must be substantial costs to the economy and therefore to UK households if the UK votes to leave.
He does have virtually at his fingertips all the info that would predict that so he can easily present it a more than strong likelihood.

As to austerity, there was never a need,in my opinion, for austerity to take place on the scale he did it,and in fact is still is doing it, that was a political choice of the political parties.
The 3 main ones anyway with the Conservatives,Labour and even the Lb Dems, all planning some forms of austerity cuts in 2010.
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Old 19-04-2016, 09:02 PM #1010
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I rarely agree with Osborne,however as to his figures as to costs of leaving the EU, although probably slightly over exaggerated in my view, I agree with him that there must be substantial costs to the economy and therefore to UK households if the UK votes to leave.
He does have virtually at his fingertips all the info that would predict that so he can easily present it a more than strong likelihood.

As to austerity, there was never a need,in my opinion, for austerity to take place on the scale he did it,and in fact is still is doing it, that was a political choice of the political parties.
The 3 main ones anyway with the Conservatives,Labour and even the Lb Dems, all planning some forms of austerity cuts in 2010.
Its more the hypocrisy I was pointing out joey.
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Old 19-04-2016, 09:06 PM #1011
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Its more the hypocrisy I was pointing out joey.
I do agree with you.
It is a little bit rich to warn households of losing spending power when he has been taking from and reducing spending power,from the poorest, for 6 years almost now.
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Old 19-04-2016, 09:38 PM #1012
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If he thinks we can, he needs to provide the 'solid' evidence of that,from the organisations and people that can guarantee it.
I think that is the biggest problem with the Europhobes argument that they can't provide any type of guarantees at all so they have no choice but to attack the arguments of the other side of the debate and call them a fantasy, when they have more evidence to back them up.

In fact you could go as far saying it is the Europhobes that are living in a fantasy land where Britain is great again. A trading nation that ruled the sea and had a empire. Those days are gone and the world has changed. We no longer control large expanses of the world. Those nations have moved on and over the years we have slipped down the richest nation.

They say we will save Ł380 million a day, but the is reality we get part of that back. Then they claim that they will spend the money on everything and solve all the problems with the NHS, social care and everything else that needs money. When the money we save is just a drop in the ocean. There economics and spending plans for the money seem flawed.

Yes there is the question of migration into the UK and how that can be controlled to reasonable levels that nobody probably has an answer too in the Europhiles camp, but one has to remember the more people in the UK the more we produce and that adds to our GDP and the more tax the government gets to spend.

It is untrue that people come to the UK for benefits, in fact they often come because the pay is higher than at home and they speak and read English and not another European language. Most will be paying in more through the tax system than they take out and they work jobs that a lot of people wouldn't do. Many will return home as pay and job prospects improve in there own homeland. Lots just see us as a stepping stone to saving some money and working hard before returning home.

One of the reasons we pay into the EU more than we get out of the EU is so the poor counties can catch up economically though investment into infrastructure. Once they have caught up then coming to the UK will become far less attractive. That is happening Poland at the moment whose economy has growing as they modernise the country.

The thing nobody has mentioned yet is that there is a very very real prospect that the UK will be broken up by a out vote.

We know that most people in Scotland voted for a party that has strong desire to remain in the EU. That party which represents most Scotland are not going let the region leave the EU. They will demand another referendum and this time they will win. It one thing Europobes are scared to discuss or even mention.
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Old 19-04-2016, 09:54 PM #1013
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I think that is the biggest problem with the Europhobes argument that they can't provide any type of guarantees at all so they have no choice but to attack the arguments of the other side of the debate and call them a fantasy, when they have more evidence to back them up.

In fact you could go as far saying it is the Europhobes that are living in a fantasy land where Britain is great again. A trading nation that ruled the sea and had a empire. Those days are gone and the world has changed. We no longer control large expanses of the world. Those nations have moved on and over the years we have slipped down the richest nation.

They say we will save Ł380 million a day, but the is reality we get part of that back. Then they claim that they will spend the money on everything and solve all the problems with the NHS, social care and everything else that needs money. When the money we save is just a drop in the ocean. There economics and spending plans for the money seem flawed.

Yes there is the question of migration into the UK and how that can be controlled to reasonable levels that nobody probably has an answer too in the Europhiles camp, but one has to remember the more people in the UK the more we produce and that adds to our GDP and the more tax the government gets to spend.

It is untrue that people come to the UK for benefits, in fact they often come because the pay is higher than at home and they speak and read English and not another European language. Most will be paying in more through the tax system than they take out and they work jobs that a lot of people wouldn't do. Many will return home as pay and job prospects improve in there own homeland. Lots just see us as a stepping stone to saving some money and working hard before returning home.

One of the reasons we pay into the EU more than we get out of the EU is so the poor counties can catch up economically though investment into infrastructure. Once they have caught up then coming to the UK will become far less attractive. That is happening Poland at the moment whose economy has growing as they modernise the country.

The thing nobody has mentioned yet is that there is a very very real prospect that the UK will be broken up by a out vote.

We know that most people in Scotland voted for a party that has strong desire to remain in the EU. That party which represents most Scotland are not going let the region leave the EU. They will demand another referendum and this time they will win. It one thing Europobes are scared to discuss or even mention.
Absolutely fantastic post full of all that the 'in' side only needs to keep saying too.
The 'in' side has no need to be scaremongering or giving out any 'dubious' figures.

I just hope enough listen and also read your post,maybe mine go on too long for most .
I also agree completely with the Scottish scenario,leaving the EU will open up a new major UK split which will further damage the economy of the UK overall too.

All we get from the 'out' side is negative after negative as to the EU with selective graphs, statistics and figures,rarely taking into account the returns too from the EU to the UK as you mentioned in your post.

This as I have said many times, is not just a decision for me personally or anyone else personally,this is a decision that will affect us all personally but it will also map out the future of the whole Nation too as well as the future generations too.
With absolutely nothing of any substance from the 'out' side and just about everything they say not supported across the board by major financial organisations, other Nations and even security and NATO as MTVN pointed out in his post earlier.
The out side then for me has not a credible leg to stand on.

Hopefully more and more will realise that and think really hard when making this vote as it cannot be overturned once made and done.
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Old 19-04-2016, 10:50 PM #1014
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This as I have said many times, is not just a decision for me personally or anyone else personally,this is a decision that will affect us all personally but it will also map out the future of the whole Nation too as well as the future generations too.
That is so true I have three children, the eldest 17 and the youngest 8, none of which have the vote. Any decision we make on the 23rd of June will affect them for the rest of their lives.

All I see is the politicians of the far left and far right of the political spectrum campaigning to leave, while those in the centre of British politics are campaigning to stay. I would hate for us to leave and be left either of the two more extreme ends of British politics to be in control of the county. I can just imagine them pushing us into a position that is confrontational and further marginalising us from that of our neighbours. Centre ground politics might be boring but it is this grouping where thankfully most of policies are made and enacted.

The EU might not always be perfect, but no marriage of views from so many different counties will ever be perfect, but it better to find agreement and common ground than to fight against each other. If anything the EU is an example of diplomacy working and what it can achieve in comparison to that of conflict and disagreement that have wrecked so many regions of the world.

I see it as healthy that we are debating the EU and if we vote stay I hope it continues. If we didn't question the EU then we wouldn't have a healthy democracy as it is that debate that defines what we the British people want from the EU and that helps shape its future. We can't do that from the outside, all we can do then just disagree and shut up because nobody would listen.
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Old 19-04-2016, 11:12 PM #1015
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The EU is simply there to enslave us to corporations and 20,000 politicians, the march of uber cabs across europe, uk and london is a perfect example. totally unregulated totally uninsured totally above all the expensive regulations and rules and security checks and insurance of every other taxi in the world? SCARY. The 70,000 word constitution of laws makes it impossible for small businesses to survive as they cant afford to deal with all that legislation. This makes europe with the horrific TTIP, a free for all for the corporations. I cannot even begin to tell you how frightening it is going to be. Think communist russia but replace stalin with the next enrons with absolute power to monopolise the entire economy , enforcing compulsory fixed prices on everything from energy to milk and throw in big brother to spy on your every move and black ball you from society if you ever dare to fight the power...In short the small personalised business are finished, the individual is dead...we cant fish, we cant opt out, we cant search without mass surveillance, we cant express ourselves, ..Orwell predicted every bit of it, he also predicted non speak would destroy our rights of free speech, this has come about in the form of political correctness , the ONLY people who will be allowed to say whatever the heck they like are those owning these corporations as they will be untouchable to all governments who can be bought out or sued out of existence....his vision of the future was a gigantic boot stamping on a persons face for eterntiy.....spot on as usual george......

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Old 19-04-2016, 11:50 PM #1016
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I read today that Michael Gove said that he wants to leave the EU and instead join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) - now I'm not sure if he is aware, but that organisation does require us to maintain freedom of movement and we have to also pay more to access the market. We also then cannot send British MEPs to vote on law, so we are essentially just removing democracy from the hands of the UK and placing it within other european nations with a move like that.

I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us. EFTA countries have to accept more-or-less the same legislation that Europe collectively passes without having a hand to raise in that. I don't understand why you'd choose to put yourself into a situation like that.
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Old 20-04-2016, 12:27 AM #1017
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I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us.
Can I join your minority, as I can see the positive benefits of being allowed to move freely around Europe and be able to work in member states as well as have people working here from the EU.

It has certainly help Britain solve problems with skills shortages in the past. You just have to think back to newspaper reports talking about the growing number of European plumbers, and a like, coming to the UK because we had a shortage of tradesmen. How many cleaners, nurses and other health workers in the NHS are European? It also helps people born here to take their skills and work outside the UK where they might be a demand where there isn't in the UK. It works both ways.

The free movement of people part of the debate is just a smoke screen to cover up successive government failures to plan for migration into the county.

The government for years have known that we have had net migration into the county but they have failed to spend the money on the basic infrastructure needed to provide the services the influx requires and to maintain same level of service over the years. Because of this now we don't have the school places, houses, doctors, etc that we need. Then you add the cuts of the last five years because the banks made a mess of it and we are were we are. It is not freedom of movement policy that is at fault, but bad planning.

It is easy to blame the EU and the freedom of movement than for the politicians to hold their hands up and say "we messed up", because that is what happened. That is what UKIP are doing and now the far right of the conservatives have joined them together with a lot of the national newspapers to attack people that pay money in taxes and add to the wealth of the country.
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:14 AM #1018
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The biggest flaw with the freedom of movement is that so many countries border checks aare pathetic or non existent. The schengen is a disaster. instead of the governments taking away the civil rights of 500 million people by inspecting all their private emails and internet searches, they need to simply control the borders to prevent the movement of terrorists in the first place
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:30 AM #1019
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I read today that Michael Gove said that he wants to leave the EU and instead join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) - now I'm not sure if he is aware, but that organisation does require us to maintain freedom of movement and we have to also pay more to access the market. We also then cannot send British MEPs to vote on law, so we are essentially just removing democracy from the hands of the UK and placing it within other european nations with a move like that.

I am one in the minority probably who would really like us to maintain the freedom of movement, but if we're going to do it, then we may as well do it from within the European Union where we have a say in what laws govern us. EFTA countries have to accept more-or-less the same legislation that Europe collectively passes without having a hand to raise in that. I don't understand why you'd choose to put yourself into a situation like that.



I am very happy to be one of your minority too Josh.

I personally feel the free movement issue is being badly presented by the 'out' side, I actually believe it is a good thing and as Nations in the EU eventually catch up with the more successful Nations in the EU, then less likely will their citizens want to move anyway.
I really believe the UK helping that process of the smaller Nations catching up,by remaining in the EU will be really beneficial to both the UK and the EU, as you say being there to help form and make decisions across the board.

However I am with you and Red Moon in a belief that the free movement is not a bad thing at all, no need for it to be presented in a sinister way at all in my opinion.
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:32 AM #1020
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With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:35 AM #1021
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With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK
it does effect as it allows the 1000s of people to flood towards our border and european laws mean we must let eu people in....we ourselves have to seriously improve our border controls as do these european countries to prevent the thousands of jihadis from doing any more damage
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:38 AM #1022
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With respect, it doesn't matter what the controls are or the freedom of movement is within other countries in the EU. We are responsible for our own borders still and those coming from EU countries without an EU passport will not be allowed in. Thus, the level of control with respect to people travelling freely within the rest of the EU does not apply to or affect the UK
Absolutely, good points again.
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:39 AM #1023
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Originally Posted by the truth View Post
it does effect as it allows the 1000s of people to flood towards our border and european laws mean we must let eu people in....we ourselves have to seriously improve our border controls as do these european countries to prevent the thousands of jihadis from doing any more damage
This is where you are wrong. We allow people with EU passports in, not just anyone that happens to be in Europe. On top of that, we still can arrest or refuse entry to criminals or those flagged as being terrorist. There is a lot of alarmist nonsense being spouted that is factually incorrect.
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Old 20-04-2016, 08:43 AM #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitontheslide View Post
This is where you are wrong. We allow people with EU passports in, not just anyone that happens to be in Europe. On top of that, we still can arrest or refuse entry to criminals or those flagged as being terrorist. There is a lot of alarmist nonsense being spouted that is factually incorrect.
no you are wrong, everything I just stated is correct. This is the alarmist nonsense spouted as incorrect by the stay in EU people. The shengen has been proved to have more holes that swiss cheese and directly lead to mass killings of innocent people just weeks ago. this will continue. The schengen is a disgrace and impacts upon us even though we are thankfully not signed up to this mindless leftist liberal disaster
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Old 21-04-2016, 01:13 PM #1025
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America warns that if UK quits Europe it will probably invade

This is scary grrr.

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THE US will probably invade Britain if it leaves the EU, according to senior White House sources.

Current and former US Treasury secretaries have confirmed that Brexit would be followed by drone warfare, airstrikes and a ground invasion to install a US-friendly regime.

Treasury secretary Tim Geithner said: “It’s nothing personal. It’s just what we do.

“You’ve got oil, the tribal leaders in Scotland and Wales are locked out of the democratic process, and your despotic ruler viciously abuses his own subjects while living in the lap of luxury.

“We’d go for a UN resolution first, then destroy the symbols of the tyrant’s regime like Buckingham Palace and Westminster, then move in on the ground.

“After that you get a few months of looting, then a puppet government, and usually within the year public order has broken down completely and it’s street warfare and three decades of intermittent bombing.”

Norman Steele of Portsmouth said: “I reckon I’ll become a militia fighter. They always seem to be having fun in jeeps.”
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...20160420108166

I will probably join my fathers army if this happens.

Last edited by billy123; 21-04-2016 at 01:15 PM.
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