[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And how will this change?... as stated almost immediately immigration will carry on so what was the point if that's all anyone was bothered about?

If you have ever deeply researched 'Immigration and The UK' or regularly watched programmes on immigration - such as 'Immigration Undercover', 'Illegal Immigrant and Proud', 'The Truth About Immigration' etc, or the excellent 'Border Force UK', you will soon come to realise, that:

a) The British Government does not KNOW how many LEGAL IMMIGRANTS' are in the UK.

b) The British Government does not know how many ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are in the UK

c) The UK Border Agency make very little difference to the numbers of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, and have even less of an impact in ensuring that those they do catch are removed or 'secured', because - under the absurd EU laws - the greater percentage of detected illegal immigrants are simply placed in open accomodation in London (paid for by the UK taxpayer) and simply told 'not to abscond'.

It is NOT the Immigrants to blame - it is the Government and the system.

Out of the EU, we can and will, repeal all the inane EU laws which have rendered it nigh impossible for us to control immigration, and unfettered immigration will be reduced and more thorough policing of our ports and airports will be initiated.

Immigration may have been high on the list of the concerns of a lot of people who voted to 'Leave' the EU, but it is not the ONLY concern, and I do not believe at all, that 'immigration is all anyone was bothered about'.

[Ammi]

...just reading some of Vicky's Facebook stuff...anyways I don't do Facebook and I don't do social media but I have spoken to a few older people since the vote and yeah they have said some things that have made me cringe in their views but their views don't come from 'hate'...they come from fear and from not being talked through and rationalised in their fears...one of the older people is fairly much someone who doesn't leave the house that much, so her influences are TV/news etc...so for her, what she's seeing is so much negative stuff and ISIS ARE EVERYWHERE..she doesn't have a balance to that and she had felt in her vote that she was voting for the younger people and making their world safer and better, you know...anyways, with mind-sets that are fixed like that and fixed from a generation of their influences from childhood and youth etc...I doubt that there will be any change and yes, racism/prejudice etc but not hateful as such...just ignorance....I do feel though and I know an unpopular opinion...that however wrong these things are, fears should be educated rather than 'shouted RACIST at'...because that will achieve nothing and only add another layer of intolerance on top of intolerance....so will add to what is an issue and a problem and very real...these mindsets will only and can only stop being handed down through generations if we discuss them/educate them and not though accusing them, which is so often and mostly the case...all that will do is make them defensive and hostile....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...just reading some of Vicky's Facebook stuff...anyways I don't do Facebook and I don't do social media but I have spoken to a few older people since the vote and yeah they have said some things that have made me cringe in their views but their views don't come from 'hate'...they come from fear and from not being talked through and rationalised in their fears...one of the older people is fairly much someone who doesn't leave the house that much, so her influences are TV/news etc...so for her, what she's seeing is so much negative stuff and ISIS ARE EVERYWHERE..she doesn't have a balance to that and she had felt in her vote that she was voting for the younger people and making their world safer and better, you know...anyways, with mind-sets that are fixed like that and fixed from a generation of their influences from childhood and youth etc...I doubt that there will be any change and yes, racism/prejudice etc but not hateful as such...just ignorance....I do feel though and I know an unpopular opinion...that however wrong these things are, fears should be educated rather than 'shouted RACIST at'...because that will achieve nothing and only add another layer of intolerance on top of intolerance....so will add to what is an issue and a problem and very real...these mindsets will only and can only stop being handed down through generations if we discuss them/educate them and not though accusing them, which is so often and mostly the case...all that will do is make them defensive and hostile....

As always I admire your endless optimism Ammi but... MOST hatred is fuelled by fear and ignorance, from little old Betty to the most hardcore and violent Britain First skinhead. The latter has got himself buffed up into what he sees as a "soldier" to fight back, while Betty hides in her home, but he's no less afraid and that's why he wants to fight.

I guess my point is... Pointing out that Betty's hatred is borne out of fear and ignorance does not stop it from being hatred.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As always I admire your endless optimism Ammi but... MOST hatred is fuelled by fear and ignorance, from little old Betty to the most hardcore and violent Britain First skinhead. The latter has got himself buffed up into what he sees as a "soldier" to fight back, while Betty hides in her home, but he's no less afraid and that's why he wants to fight.

I guess my point is... Pointing out that Betty's hatred is borne out of fear and ignorance does not stop it from being hatred.

..it's got nothing to do with optimism at all TS..I see prejudice/racist stuff at work from small children...would you say that was 'hate' also..?...because there is no hate in them at all, it's inherited through environments and influences and shouting it down will achieve absolutely nothing at all..it will only breed defensiveness and on and on and on...nothing will ever change...there is only one 'fight' against ignorance that can ever have any chance of victory whatsoever and that's educating and discussing and understanding that person's fears or prejudices...I'm not optimistic at all, I'm very much a realist....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As always I admire your endless optimism Ammi but... MOST hatred is fuelled by fear and ignorance, from little old Betty to the most hardcore and violent Britain First skinhead. The latter has got himself buffed up into what he sees as a "soldier" to fight back, while Betty hides in her home, but he's no less afraid and that's why he wants to fight.

I guess my point is... Pointing out that Betty's hatred is borne out of fear and ignorance does not stop it from being hatred.

You live in Scotland - in which particular 'bubble' of splendid isolation the Lord only knows - so what qualifies you to denigrate decent English people, old or otherwise, who have genuine grievances about the impairment to the quality of their lives, wrought by unfettered immigration into their communities?

The majority of British people - and that, by their own voilition, includes huge numbers of long domiciled immigrants, coloured or otherwise - who are concerned about uncontrolled runaway immigration, are NOT racist, xenophobic, or ignorant. They are ordinary, decent, people who have genuine concerns borne of actual direct personal experience, of the extremely adverse effects on their traditional way of life.

These 'indigenous' people are not filled with hatred, just concern. They are not against immigrants in reasonable numbers who integrate, just alarmed by huge numbers of immigrants who have not integrated, but formed ghettos; scaled down replications of the native villages, towns, and cities in their own countries - THE countries which they have left to come to Britain.

In addition to the now long established and accepted Asian usurpation of huge parts of the UK, there is now ever increasingly more areas in Great Britain where British people are GENUINELY suffering because their traditional British way of life has been, and increasingly still is being, usurped by the relentless influx of Eastern European immigrants.

Which areas of the UK now does not have its 'Little Polands', 'Little Romanias' etc? - areas where the shops, businesses, houses, and markets are owned, staffed and patronised by immigrants. Areas where English is a foreign language, and British traditions and culture even more foreign.

No one in authority has done anything to allay the concerns of these usurped indegeous citizens, because they are prejudiced against such concerns by their own political persuasions, or are fearful of the P.C. driven backlash, or are rendered impotent by 'EU Legislation'.

So yes, these people are concerned, and feel marginalised, forgotten, contemptuously ignored by the politicians whom they elected to serve them and trusted with their votes.

And YES, the win by the 'Vote Leave' campaign was partly due to the votes of these anxious citizens, because it was 'payback' time - a message to the Government, that if immigrants lives matter, then so should the lives of the downtrodden, suffering people who put this Government in power.

These people are NOT Xenophobic and NOT racist, and neither is their concerns bred of ignorance or irrational fear, but very much borne from the real increasingly adverse experiences of how uncontrolled immigration is decimating the lives of decent, ordinary people.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You live in Scotland - in which particular 'bubble' of splendid isolation the Lord only knows - so what qualifies you to denigrate decent English people, old or otherwise, who have genuine grievances about the impairment to the quality of their lives, wrought by unfettered immigration into their communities?

The majority of British people - and that, by their own voilition, includes huge numbers of long domiciled immigrants, coloured or otherwise - who are concerned about uncontrolled runaway immigration, are NOT racist, xenophobic, or ignorant. They are ordinary, decent, people who have genuine concerns borne of actual direct personal experience, of the extremely adverse effects on their traditional way of life.

These 'indigenous' people are not filled with hatred, just concern. They are not against immigrants in reasonable numbers who integrate, just alarmed by huge numbers of immigrants who have not integrated, but formed ghettos; scaled down replications of the native villages, towns, and cities in their own countries - THE countries which they have left to come to Britain.

In addition to the now long established and accepted Asian usurpation of huge parts of the UK, there is now ever increasingly more areas in Great Britain where British people are GENUINELY suffering because their traditional British way of life has been, and increasingly still is being, usurped by the relentless influx of Eastern European immigrants.

Which areas of the UK now does not have its 'Little Polands', 'Little Romanias' etc? - areas where the shops, businesses, houses, and markets are owned, staffed and patronised by immigrants. Areas where English is a foreign language, and British traditions and culture even more foreign.

No one in authority has done anything to allay the concerns of these usurped indegeous citizens, because they are prejudiced against such concerns by their own political persuasions, or are fearful of the P.C. driven backlash, or are rendered impotent by 'EU Legislation'.

So yes, these people are concerned, and feel marginalised, forgotten, contemptuously ignored by the politicians whom they elected to serve them and trusted with their votes.

And YES, the win by the 'Vote Leave' campaign was partly due to the votes of these anxious citizens, because it was 'payback' time - a message to the Government, that if immigrants lives matter, then so should the lives of the downtrodden, suffering people who put this Government in power.

These people are NOT Xenophobic and NOT racist, and neither is their concerns bred of ignorance or irrational fear, but very much borne from the real increasingly adverse experiences of how uncontrolled immigration is decimating the lives of decent, ordinary people.

It was a UK referendum, Scotland is as entitled to their say as England remember?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It was a UK referendum, Scotland is as entitled to their say as England remember?

It seems not Kizzy, what some in England appear to want to do is dominate and dictate even more to the likely seen as bothersome and other burden Nations of the UK.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It seems not Kizzy, what some in England appear to want to do is dominate and dictate even more to the likely seen as bothersome and other burden Nations of the UK.

Yes it does appear that way to me too, England do not call all the shots in UK affairs.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...just reading some of Vicky's Facebook stuff...anyways I don't do Facebook and I don't do social media but I have spoken to a few older people since the vote and yeah they have said some things that have made me cringe in their views but their views don't come from 'hate'...they come from fear and from not being talked through and rationalised in their fears...one of the older people is fairly much someone who doesn't leave the house that much, so her influences are TV/news etc...so for her, what she's seeing is so much negative stuff and ISIS ARE EVERYWHERE..she doesn't have a balance to that and she had felt in her vote that she was voting for the younger people and making their world safer and better, you know...anyways, with mind-sets that are fixed like that and fixed from a generation of their influences from childhood and youth etc...I doubt that there will be any change and yes, racism/prejudice etc but not hateful as such...just ignorance....I do feel though and I know an unpopular opinion...that however wrong these things are, fears should be educated rather than 'shouted RACIST at'...because that will achieve nothing and only add another layer of intolerance on top of intolerance....so will add to what is an issue and a problem and very real...these mindsets will only and can only stop being handed down through generations if we discuss them/educate them and not though accusing them, which is so often and mostly the case...all that will do is make them defensive and hostile....

The intellectual quality of this forum would not only be severely impaired without you Ammi, one truely impartial voice of reason (BOTS being the other) would be gone.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If you have ever deeply researched 'Immigration and The UK' or regularly watched programmes on immigration - such as 'Immigration Undercover', 'Illegal Immigrant and Proud', 'The Truth About Immigration' etc, or the excellent 'Border Force UK', you will soon come to realise, that:

a) The British Government does not KNOW how many LEGAL IMMIGRANTS' are in the UK.

b) The British Government does not know how many ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are in the UK

c) The UK Border Agency make very little difference to the numbers of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, and have even less of an impact in ensuring that those they do catch are removed or 'secured', because - under the absurd EU laws - the greater percentage of detected illegal immigrants are simply placed in open accomodation in London (paid for by the UK taxpayer) and simply told 'not to abscond'.

It is NOT the Immigrants to blame - it is the Government and the system.

Out of the EU, we can and will, repeal all the inane EU laws which have rendered it nigh impossible for us to control immigration, and unfettered immigration will be reduced and more thorough policing of our ports and airports will be initiated.

Immigration may have been high on the list of the concerns of a lot of people who voted to 'Leave' the EU, but it is not the ONLY concern, and I do not believe at all, that 'immigration is all anyone was bothered about'.

If you have ever deeply researched 'Immigration and The UK' or regularly watched programmes on immigration - such as 'Immigration Undercover', 'Illegal Immigrant and Proud', 'The Truth About Immigration' etc, or the excellent 'Border Force UK', you will soon come to realise, that:.......this is how the media is utilised to influence the public as a tool of informal control.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you have ever deeply researched 'Immigration and The UK' or regularly watched programmes on immigration - such as 'Immigration Undercover', 'Illegal Immigrant and Proud', 'The Truth About Immigration' etc, or the excellent 'Border Force UK', you will soon come to realise, that:.......this is how the media is utilised to influence the public as a tool of informal control.

Exactly Kizzy and this didn't start within earshot of a referendum, this started with those bastard neoliberals who used immigration and fear of terrorism as a ruse to bring in more snooping laws. Prejudice wasn't born from UKIP, it was just nurtured and watered by them. These Tories planted the seed and sat back and allowed the media to fuel it for all it was worth.

Cameron's little game went woefully wrong and now he has fallen on his own sword.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you have ever deeply researched 'Immigration and The UK' or regularly watched programmes on immigration - such as 'Immigration Undercover', 'Illegal Immigrant and Proud', 'The Truth About Immigration' etc, or the excellent 'Border Force UK', you will soon come to realise, that:.......this is how the media is utilised to influence the public as a tool of informal control.

Says someone who voted with the Establishment and Cameron and Osborne to Remain.

Do you really BELIEVE that EVERY documentary produced is done deliberately to produce a false picture of immigrants and immigration?

On the subject of 'Immigration', just WHO 'utilises the media to influence the public as a tool of information control?'

It cannot be Cameron and The Establishment because THEY have just sold their souls to try to 'influence the public' into staying in the EU' - including utilising the media' - and only those supporting immigration, openly or covertly, voted to stay in the EU.

Perhaps it was the Labour Party?..... Uh, no, ok then.

The BNP, The EDL, UKIP?... Oh, OK - none of these wield THAT kind of power or have the funds.

Let me think for a moment....... Eureka! I've got it!.... It's all just nonsense emanating from within your own mind - without foundation of course.

Thank you for another meaningless negative response, which does zilch to contribute to any meaningful debate. Bye.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Says someone who voted with the Establishment and Cameron and Osborne to Remain.

Do you really BELIEVE that EVERY documentary produced is done deliberately to produce a false picture of immigrants and immigration?

On the subject of 'Immigration', just WHO 'utilises the media to influence the public as a tool of information control?'

It cannot be Cameron and The Establishment because THEY have just sold their souls to try to 'influence the public' into staying in the EU' - including utilising the media' - and only those supporting immigration, openly or covertly, voted to stay in the EU.

Perhaps it was the Labour Party?..... Uh, no, ok then.

The BNP, The EDL, UKIP?... Oh, OK - none of these wield THAT kind of power or have the funds.

Let me think for a moment....... Eureka! I've got it!.... It's all just nonsense emanating from within your own mind - without foundation of course.

Thank you for another meaningless negative response, which does zilch to contribute to any meaningful debate. Bye.

Not every documentary no.

It has been previously admitted that the media and documentary programming has in the past been used as a tool to manipulate the perception of the electorate on certain issues.

Thank you for your denigration of my perception and opinion on this issue, I have come to expect nothing more.