[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

lets also consider the nature of how Scotland ended up in the EU in the first place. It was dragged in to the EU as a result of a UK decision to do so, not a Scottish decision. Right back 40 years ago when we first joined, if Scotland had been given the individual choice to join, it would have told the UK to **** right off then

RED, RED, PROSE
Your posts should ne'er be ignored
Each I confess, I do aplaud
They ALWAYS seem to make such sense
E're oft we're on different sides 'a the fence.
Kirkie Burns - 1793.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

lets also consider the nature of how Scotland ended up in the EU in the first place. It was dragged in to the EU as a result of a UK decision to do so, not a Scottish decision. Right back 40 years ago when we first joined, if Scotland had been given the individual choice to join, it would have told the UK to **** right off then

As I said on another thread I think that Sturgeon's desperation to remain in the EU is more about her separatist agenda than anything else. She knows that for Scotland to be independent it needs an umbrella of some sort to prop it up because it doesn't have the means to stand alone.

What I don't really get is why you'd want to swap one umbrella for another. Scotland will probably have more power over it's own destiny in an independent UK than in a federal Europe. Is it really all just about deep seated hatred of the English?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

As I said on another thread I think that Sturgeon's desperation to remain in the EU is more about her separatist agenda than anything else. She knows that for Scotland to be independent it needs an umbrella of some sort to prop it up because it doesn't have the means to stand alone.

What I don't really get is why you'd want to swap one umbrella for another. Scotland will probably have more power over it's own destiny in an independent UK than in a federal Europe. Is it really all just about deep seated hatred of the English?

Aye - I think ye might be right, ye canny lassie.

[Greg!]

The poll also shows that Scotland would vote for independence. I think some of the people who are against another referendum are yes voters who think they would lose

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

But wasn't the SNP's campaign run very largely on the premise that Scotland could live off North Sea Oil? The oil prices have now tanked so how would an independent Scotland finance itself? You are shouting up for a cause that just doesn't have any substance in the current climate. Even Sturgeon knows this is why she is couching her language in such a cagey way and isn't screaming for an immediate referendum.

I find your bitterness over the referendum a bit sad Joey. I hope you can find peace with it over time. Part of being in a democracy is accepting that the will of the people doesn't always go your way. But we are all very lucky to live in a democracy where we can express our views and have a say. China isn't even allowed to read the internet outside of it's own country.

This isn't really about the referendum except in that the Scots voted 62% to remain in the EU.
Although I think the referendum was a disgrace start to end from 'all' involved in it on both sides..

It is about the right of Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland to call another independence referendum in light of the result and its desire to remain in the EU and in the light of a promise broken by the UK govt..

The fact the UK PM and the deputy PM at the time,Nick Clegg, also the leader of the Opposition,Ed Miliband made a promise that Scotland's future in the EU was secure if they voted to stay part of the UK.
The fact that promise,it seems as to a good few is fine to be now broken and Scotland's needs dismissed, That's what I am angry about.

As anyone would be at any promise made being broken.
A promise to a Nation indeed to anyone,should not be broken.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This isn't really about the referendum except in that the Scots voted 62% to remain in the EU.
Although I think the referendum was a disgrace start to end from 'all' involved in it on both sides..

It is about the right of Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland to call another independence referendum in light of the result and its desire to remain in the EU and in the light of a promise broken by the UK govt..

The fact the UK PM and the deputy PM at the time,Nick Clegg, also the leader of the Opposition,Ed Miliband made a promise that Scotland's future in the EU was secure if they voted to stay part of the UK.
The fact that promise,it seems as to a good few is fine to be now broken and Scotland's needs dismissed, That's what I am angry about.

As anyone would be at any promise made being broken.
A promise to a Nation indeed to anyone,should not be broken.

So you are advocating a Scottish referendum without any thought to what monies Scotland will survive on? You claim Scotland's needs were dismissed, what about their need to survive day to day as a country? They are not in the same position they were in in 2014. There are clear indications there is opposition to them joining the EU. I thought you were a labour voter with a social conscience. It sounds more like you want to throw Scotland under a bus to prove some sort of convoluted point.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

So you are advocating a Scottish referendum without any thought to what monies Scotland will survive on? You claim Scotland's needs were dismissed, what about their need to survive day to day as a country? They are not in the same position they were in in 2014. There are clear indications there is opposition to them joining the EU. I thought you were a labour voter with a social conscience. It sounds more like you want to throw Scotland under a bus to prove some sort of convoluted point.

Far from it, I love Scotland and know there are those against independence.
It may well be that the Scots would reject independence again.
I am not going to base any opinion on sideshow opinion polls who make mistake after mistake as to public opinion.

The only poll that matters where actual votes are cast, showed 62% of Scots voting to stay in the EU.

Therefore I believe Nicola is right to do all she can to secure that and I think you play Scotland down rather.
I think it is a Nation that could gather a lot of support for it from around the world.
I am Labour member with a social conscience what on earth has that got to do with this?

However,the fact you can accept your govt breaking its promises to another Nation in the UK worries me far more, with respect, than my stance on this.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Far from it, I love Scotland and know there are those against independence.
It may well be that the Scots would reject independence again.
I am not going to base any opinion on sideshow opinion polls who make mistake after mistake as to public opinion.

The only poll that matters where actual votes are cast, showed 62% of Scots voting to stay in the EU.

Therefore I believe Nicola is right to do all she can to secure that and I think you play Scotland down rather.
I think it is a Nation that could gather a lot of support for it from around the world.
I am Labour member with a social conscience what on earth has that got to do with this?

However,the fact you can accept your govt breaking its promises to another Nation in the UK worries me far more, with respect, than my stance on this.

No putting words in my mouth Joey, I've not stated what I accept and don't accept about the government so you can have that argument all by yourself. I can't help feel you are missing the point. The point I'm trying to make to you is the 62% is completely irrelevant if Scotland has no means to support itself after a referendum and the EU, which could prop it up if it left the UK, are not offering open welcoming arms. I'm not playing anyone down, I'm asking how they will support themselves.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

No putting words in my mouth Joey, I've not stated what I accept and don't accept about the government so you can have that argument all by yourself. I can't help feel you are missing the point. The point I'm trying to make to you is the 62% is completely irrelevant if Scotland has no means to support itself after a referendum and the EU, which could prop it up if it left the UK, are not offering open welcoming arms.

The EU has neither dismissed Scotland or embraced it, all it has said is out of respect for the UK exit, nothing can be talked about until after the dealings with the UK govt.

If what the UK govt and the EU finally do, if it's not acceptable to the Scots, and the Scots go for independence then that will be the time the EU can talk to and negotiate with them.

Until then, Nicola Sturgeon has simply, this week, put on the EU table the view that if the UK leaves the EU, Scotland wants to remain part of the EU

Nothing about being welcomed with open arms or being rejected, simply the right channels to go through as to all stages.
All she needs to do is get an independence vote though Holyrood, which she can as the Greens support her too on this.
Then get it enacted at the appropriate time.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The EU has neither dismissed Scotland or embraced it, all it has said is out of respect for the UK exit, nothing can be talked about until after the dealings with the UK govt.

If what the UK govt and the EU finally do, if it's not acceptable to the Scots, and the Scots go for independence then that will be the time the EU can talk to and negotiate with them.

Until then, Nicola Sturgeon has simply, this week, put on the EU table the view that if the UK leaves the EU, Scotland wants to remain part of the EU

Nothing about being welcomed with open arms or being rejected, simply the right channels to go through as to all stages.
All she needs to do is get an independence vote though Holyrood, which she can as the Greens support her too on this.
Then get it enacted at the appropriate time.

Spain has said absolutely no to Scotland for it's own political reasons. The rest of the EU can't do anything if they can't get a consensus. Anyone of any importance at all would not meet her when she went off to the EU, she just got a bit of tea of sympathy from people who will have no say whether Scotland joins or not.

And again you are missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon needs the EU if she is to have any hope of independance. She can't call a vote without signed, sealed and delivered assurances Scotland can remain in the EU. This is not going to happen.

[the truth]

scotland already has the bets of both worlds a parliament , yet they still votes on matters in england and wales but we dont vote on their laws? tax raising powers will be their next goal after their non existent eu deal goes up in smoke

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Spain has said absolutely no to Scotland for it's own political reasons. The rest of the EU can't do anything if they can't get a consensus. Anyone of any importance at all would not meet her when she went off to the EU, she just got a bit of tea of sympathy from people who will have no say whether Scotland joins or not.

And again you are missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon needs the EU if she is to have any hope of independance. She can't call a vote without signed, sealed and delivered assurances Scotland can remain in the EU. This is not going to happen.

No one has any certainty as to how the EU will react to the situation when it comes up.

As for your certainty, sorry I doubt anyone can be certain, time will tell but for as long as the SNP rule in Scotland and the govt of the UK keep taking them for granted and breaking promises, the likelihood of independence will always be a strong possibility.

As for Spain,yes there are issues there,however the EU will likely, if it wanted to, be able to offer some concessions to Spain.

Also, if she really wanted to, she could still call for an independence referendum for the breaking of the guarantee that Scotland future was secure in they voted to stay in the UK.
Which is another major point in my view.

The SNP lost its overall majority very narrowly in the Holyrood elections this year, any more losses next time could well start to change things up there.
Fortunately for Nicola she saw the Greens get some seats and they support a independence referendum.

Time may run out if she does not seize this further opportunity now.
She will for sure have even more ammunition if this new PM refuses to have a general election,which leaves Scotland under a Conservative govt they did not vote for and also being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scots too.

This must seem like Christmas coming early for Nicola Sturgeon and she is not the kind of politician to miss taking the best chances she gets.
Nor should she in my view.

Anyway as ever with you,although we disagree I always enjoy our debates.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

No one has any certainty as to how the EU will react to the situation when it comes up.

As for your certainty, sorry I doubt anyone can be certain, time will tell but for as long as the SNP rule in Scotland and the govt of the UK keep taking them for granted and breaking promises, the likelihood of independence will always be a strong possibility.

As for Spain,yes there are issues there,however the EU will likely, if it wanted to, be able to offer some concessions to Spain.

Also, if she really wanted to, she could still call for an independence referendum for the breaking of the guarantee that Scotland future was secure in they voted to stay in the UK.
Which is another major point in my view.

The SNP lost its overall majority very narrowly in the Holyrood elections this year, any more losses next time could well start to change things up there.
Fortunately for Nicola she saw the Greens get some seats and they support a independence referendum.

Time may run out if she does not seize this further opportunity now.
She will for sure have even more ammunition if this new PM refuses to have a general election,which leaves Scotland under a Conservative govt they did not vote for and also being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scots too.

This must seem like Christmas coming early for Nicola Sturgeon and she is not the kind of politician to miss taking the best chances she gets.
Nor should she in my view.

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself as I don't think you are listening to anything I'm saying! Just a FYI the Queen rules in Scotland, the SNP is the majority government. You might want to read a little about the EU and Spain and separatist movements, and what a great deal Scotland has within the UK as you are coming across to me as if you've not read much about either. Good luck with that if it interests you.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself as I don't think you are listening to anything I'm saying! Just a FYI the Queen rules in Scotland, the SNP is the majority government. You might want to read a little about the EU and Spain and separatist movements, and what a great deal Scotland has within the UK as you are coming across to me as if you've not read much about either. Good luck with that if it interests you.

Spain will never support Scotland getting in the EU because it would encourage their own regions to do something similar.

I agree, there isn't a concession in the world that would make Spain change that position.

Also, I don't think Scotland is financially strong enough to be a net contributor, so having lost the UK, why would any country in Europe want their share of the dosh to reduce.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Spain will never support Scotland getting in the EU because it would encourage their own regions to do something similar.

I agree, there isn't a concession in the world that would make Spain change that position.

Also, I don't think Scotland is financially strong enough to be a net contributor, so having lost the UK, why would any country in Europe want their share of the dosh to reduce.

I think you probably said it better and more clearly than I did!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself as I don't think you are listening to anything I'm saying! Just a FYI the Queen rules in Scotland, the SNP is the majority government. You might want to read a little about the EU and Spain and separatist movements, and what a great deal Scotland has within the UK as you are coming across to me as if you've not read much about either. Good luck with that if it interests you.

Absolutely no need for that response whatsoever,and I think I do know at least a little bit about politics actually and international politics too,although my main interests is UK politics.
If politicians have the desire to do something,in the UK or anywhere around the World, there are ways they can, and will, find to do it.
That is all I am saying and pointing out.

Also,I do fail to grasp this one I admit, the Queen actually rules nowhere at all,she is a figurehead Monarch only, she cannot tell anyone to do a single thing, outside of her own family,if she ever tried to, she would cause a constitutional crisis.
Which I am sure you know that anyway.

It is the elected Scottish parliament and majority or leading party that rules in Scotland on a strong number of devolved issues, the other issues are ruled by the UK govt in Westminster.
Nothing at all to do with the Queen.
All she does is annually read a speech written for her by the govt, she can never disagree or leave out anything that is in it, or refuse to allow any of it.

Also, I really hate to correct anyone but the SNP is not now a majority govt in Scotland at all,it is now a minority one actually, having lost its overall majority in the May elections this year.
Hence why Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will need the Green MSPs at Holyrood to help it get any independence act through the Scottish parliament in Holyrood.

Which will then also have to permitted afterwards by the UK government in Westminster.

A very long way to go but the SNP have achieved it before with Alex Salmond,so to rule out another referendum on independence out is pure guesswork.
I also actually do not think Scotland has that great a deal with the UK,I do think both benefit from being in Union but that is as far as I would go on that one.

Scotland has never voted for a Conservative govt. from even before we were in Europe as the EEC and then the EU,yet it has had to live under one just as Wales has too.
I doubt a great number of Scots would agree they have a great deal or have had a great deal from the UK governments over the last few decades particularly under Conservatives,Labour and the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition.

None of my family and friends across Scotland would say they have for sure.

[Liberty4eva]

England and Wales need to break free. Let Scotland do what Scotland does but don't delay leaving a second more. They'll just be begging to be let back into the UK once the EU collapses anyways.

[Johnnyuk123]

Scotland have more chance of winning the European football cup 2016 than they have of rejoining the EU. Oh wait...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I think you probably said it better and more clearly than I did!

BOTS always says it more succinctly and better than anyone Jax - It's a gift he has - the TWOT

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Scotland have more chance of winning the European football cup 2016 than they have of rejoining the EU. Oh wait...

[arista]

Originally Posted by reece(:

A 1,000 person poll is not conclusive

Well of course now
its has changed 5 years later
In the Sunday Times , today.




Someone was viewing this thread
that why its alive again

[arista]

[arista]

[joeysteele]

I'm not sure he's frightened by it.
I think he just has a tendency to not accept it and not believe in it, when it doesn't suit him.
Worrying that should be in my view.

[Samm]

The Union is dead, brexit and covid have made that clear, ever since 2016 this country has been going down a slippery slope, isolating its self and loosing touch with the younger generation. I’m embarrassed to be british, I would much rather class myself as European. I think there’s a lot of underlying problems like this current government, the unhealthy obsession with the war and probably the monarchy. A big change like a republic country would be a starting point.