[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As for contraception - I'm proud father to a 7 year old pill-baby ... my second was planned, but we did get pregnant a 3rd time when my wife had a contraceptive coil. It was an early miscarriage though... most pregnancies that happen whilst there's a coil implant are (what with there being a foreign object in the uterus).

But yeah, two pregnancies whilst on contraception. It's definitely far from perfect.

Someone I know fathered a child after he had had the snip And yes, the child definitely is his before someone says...

[AnnieK]

Lowering the legal limit is not a bad thing I'm as long as they don't try to abolish it completely. 24 weeks is far too late imo. They will always be allowed to do later term medical terminations but for "normal" terminations 24 weeks is far too advanced imo.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Lowering the legal limit is not a bad thing I'm as long as they don't try to abolish it completely. 24 weeks is far too late imo. They will always be allowed to do later term medical terminations but for "normal" terminations 24 weeks is far too advanced imo.

I'm all for choice but when it comes to a 24 week abortion, like you, I believe it should only be used for medical reasons or exceptional circumstances. My reasons are because most babies born between 22-23 weeks will not survive and if they do, most will be severely brain damaged. A pregnant woman who threatens labour at 23 weeks will receive a lot of resources to try and get her pregnancy to go that extra week because at 24 weeks the odds of survival without severe brain damage go up dramatically. I've never understood why its 24 weeks and not 22-23 weeks.

Another thing is, doctors and nurses involved in dilation and evacuation procedure used in late stage abortions often find it very traumatic and spend a lot of time struggling with their own conscience. Whilst they know its a necessary procedure most cases, they don't call it the 'dark side' of medicine for nothing.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

What is the deadline for abortions now? my friend had a little boy at 24 weeks,NONE of us thought he would survive,he was so tiny,I cried when I saw him,but against the odds he pulled through,he has a little trouble walking but otherwise he is fine,he is now a strapping 9 year old,so maybe it's never a bad thing to have it reviewed.

My niece and her baby were put on life support when she had her baby girl.
She lost a baby boy at 24 weeks the year before, he only lived 6 hours.
Fortunately they managed to save mother and baby, baby had a few problems to start with, but she was out of hospital by the time her actual due date.
She is now an award winning dancer and the smiliest happiest kid ever.
Had she been born before the 24 weeks there is a chance she would not have been given any help in her chance of survival.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Someone I know fathered a child after he had had the snip And yes, the child definitely is his before someone says...

Yeah, my best friends son has a gorgeous little girl born after he had the snip.
Silly beggar never waited for the all clear that his little swimmers were dud.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by smudgie

My niece and her baby were put on life support when she had her baby girl.
She lost a baby boy at 24 weeks the year before, he only lived 6 hours.
Fortunately they managed to save mother and baby, baby had a few problems to start with, but she was out of hospital by the time her actual due date.
She is now an award winning dancer and the smiliest happiest kid ever.
Had she been born before the 24 weeks there is a chance she would not have been given any help in her chance of survival.

I am so pleased she is good now smudgie,miracles do happen

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I am so pleased she is good now smudgie,miracles do happen

Indeed.
Unfortunately my niece had to have a sterilisation as she was told she would probably not survive another pregnancy, but she has two lovely girls so she is lucky really.

[Vicky.]

There are a huge number of babies that survive when born really really early. Gavins son with someone else was born at 30 weeks. Which is not really that early but my god he was tiny. He weighed next to nothing and was see through and it was just heartbreaking. In the incubator thing next to him there was a baby that had been born at 23 weeks fighting for its life. It ended up dying but Gavin still talks about that baby now, it really touched him

Doctors do refuse to do 'choice' based abortions late on though. Tends to be only if the baby will have a severe disability or if the mothers life is at risk somehow.

[Toy Soldier]

My dad was born at 24 weeks, weighed less than 2lbs. And that was 63 years ago when survival chances were even lower. He's 6'2 as well .

To think, you guys almost didn't have the pleasure of Toy Soldier ... What sort of forum would it even be?

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My dad was born at 24 weeks, weighed less than 2lbs. And that was 63 years ago when survival chances were even lower. He's 6'2 as well .

To think, you guys almost didn't have the pleasure of Toy Soldier ... What sort of forum would it even be?

I can't imagine the forum without you TS

Great that your dad survived, especially so many years ago without the technology and equipment we have now.

[Northern Monkey]

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.

Problem is though, what would you say we could do about (the vanishingly small number of) people like this? Force them to have babies? Sterylise them?

At my 12 week scan mine looked like babies...not sure if mine just grew fast or what.

Very upsetting stuff in the spoiler. Don't click if easily upset...

Spoiler:

When I had my miscarriage just before I got pregnant with Skye, I was only 9 weeks and what I passed looked like a really tiny baby :S It was absolutely horrendous

I guess the issue with reducing the limit loads is a lot of people don't even realise they are pregnant until a later stage. I used to think it should be under 12 weeks. However...as most are carried out at an early stage anyway, it seems to kind of police itself. I doubt anyone would take the decision of a late abortion lightly. Even an early one is seriously upsetting, I can't imagine what it must be like to actually have to give birth to a baby you have aborted :/

Some really do seem to think women do it for ****s and giggles. A select few might not take it as seriously as they should, but the huge majority do.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Problem is though, what would you say we could do about (the vanishingly small number of) people like this? Force them to have babies? Sterylise them?

At my 12 week scan mine looked like babies...not sure if mine just grew fast or what.

Very upsetting stuff in the spoiler. Don't click if easily upset...

Spoiler:

When I had my miscarriage just before I got pregnant with Skye, I was only 9 weeks and what I passed looked like a really tiny baby :S It was absolutely horrendous

I guess the issue with reducing the limit loads is a lot of people don't even realise they are pregnant until a later stage. I used to think it should be under 12 weeks. However...as most are carried out at an early stage anyway, it seems to kind of police itself. I doubt anyone would take the decision of a late abortion lightly. Even an early one is seriously upsetting, I can't imagine what it must be like to actually have to give birth to a baby you have aborted :/

Some really do seem to think women do it for ****s and giggles. A select few might not take it as seriously as they should, but the huge majority do.

I think somewhere between the 16-20 week would make more sense under normal circumstances. Obviously if it is detrimental to the mothers life then at anytime.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I personally believe that the abortion time limit should be dramatically reduced anyway.
Anyone with kids knows that at that 20 week scan when you can determine the sex.That is a baby in there!Not just a collection of cells.24 or 26 or whatever it is weeks is ridiculous.You're killing a baby at that stage.Awful.
A friend of a friend has had five abortions when she was young.That should no way be allowed.
People need to start taking responsibility for there actions.
I'm not anti abortion overall but there needs to be some stricter rules in place.

Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

True.
Shame something wasn't done in 2012 when Theresa May amongst others were thinking about it.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Great that your dad survived, especially so many years ago without the technology and equipment we have now.

I think he was pretty much a write off, but he just kept ticking along. Like a few hours later they were like "Err he's still alive, we should probably start feeding him or something"

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Possibly, but the debate being prompted as a concession to the DUP is not just questionable but counter-productive to the debate itself. It's never going to be debated openly and honestly when it's tainted with other political distractions and implications.

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want. I can imagine over the coming weeks/months the debates will get worse too. Maybe a few talks in parliament about how 'gays are abominations' and how May should remove equal marriage laws and such no doubt

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want.

For it to have been announced so early I'd assume it was one of their agreements when they were negotiating the support deal in the first place. It seems to have been cobbled together pretty hastily... The Conservatives really did not expect anything less than a majority.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, this is what concerns me about it, not the debate itself as such, but how ****ing early May seems to be doing what they want. I can imagine over the coming weeks/months the debates will get worse too. Maybe a few talks in parliament about how 'gays are abominations' and how May should remove equal marriage laws and such no doubt

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There are a huge number of babies that survive when born really really early. Gavins son with someone else was born at 30 weeks. Which is not really that early but my god he was tiny. He weighed next to nothing and was see through and it was just heartbreaking. In the incubator thing next to him there was a baby that had been born at 23 weeks fighting for its life. It ended up dying but Gavin still talks about that baby now, it really touched him

Doctors do refuse to do 'choice' based abortions late on though. Tends to be only if the baby will have a severe disability or if the mothers life is at risk somehow.

Sadly that isn't the case with some doctors and some private abortion clinics.
I know someone who had an abortion at 23 weeks + 5 days because she simply changed her mind. Knowing she may have a tough time getting a late abortion, she simply lied to the medical professional who interviewed her. She told them that she hadn't realized she was pregnant because she'd still been getting her periods (lies) and that she'd been drinking a lot of alcohol and cannabis (which she hadn't). She was two days within the deadline and they rushed her through to a specialist clinic to do the procedure.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.

Yep that's going to be interesting.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

They can debate it all they want (although i dont think they will) it is a free country. The point is that a minority government doesnt have the capability to pass anything close to controversial, they would immediately face a vote of no confidence and be straight back to an election. Its only a matter of hours or weeks until a new election is called.

I fully expect the queens speech to be challenged to test the water. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we dont even get to a new session without having to go straight back to the people for another election.

what do you mean by this?

I am fairly happy with this government tbh if all her controversial stuff will be voted down. So she will be able to do...nothing that she wants. No more bashing the disabled...

So she can stay to sort out Brexit so that they cannot play on the lie that Labour ****ed it up (much like the lie that Labour caused the global recession ) to get themselves back in.

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Sadly that isn't the case with some doctors and some private abortion clinics.
I know someone who had an abortion at 23 weeks + 5 days because she simply changed her mind. Knowing she may have a tough time getting a late abortion, she simply lied to the medical professional who interviewed her. She told them that she hadn't realized she was pregnant because she'd still been getting her periods (lies) and that she'd been drinking a lot of alcohol and cannabis (which she hadn't). She was two days within the deadline and they rushed her through to a specialist clinic to do the procedure.

Hmm. I guess though, the doctors couldn't prove she was lying about it.

I'm not sure what should happen though, in cases where the mother genuinely does not realize until late on. Very very grey area for me :/ And of course, its hard to prove that people lie about it. Though there must have been something else going on than she just changed her mind. Noone in their right mind would chose to put themselves through that on a whim...

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

what do you mean by this?

I am fairly happy with this government tbh if all her controversial stuff will be voted down. So she will be able to do...nothing that she wants. No more bashing the disabled...

So she can stay to sort out Brexit so that they cannot play on the lie that Labour ****ed it up (much like the lie that Labour caused the global recession ) to get themselves back in.



Hmm. I guess though, the doctors couldn't prove she was lying about it.

I'm not sure what should happen though, in cases where the mother genuinely does not realize until late on. Very very grey area for me :/

The legislation that the government propose to put through parliament has to be outlined in the queens speech and it is then voted on, on day 1 of the parliament.

This is why a party needs a majority to be able to do anything. So, if they remotely try to meddle with Northern Ireland, it will get kicked out immediately. They just can't do anything controversial.

What I am saying is that even without anything controversial in there, there could easily be enough pissed off tories to stop TM in her tracks there and then. Honestly, I don't see TM lasting a week, its just all posturing at the moment while the big boys decide who should be put forward to take over.

Democracy does work, and disaffected Tories will vote down their own party if they think its in the countries best interests. With the way May has handled brexit, I would imagine there is a large queue of them.