[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

All questions we don't have answers to.

As Niamh said, it would be like assuming all Western white people were Christian.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

All questions we don't have answers to.

As Niamh said, it would be like assuming all Western white people were Christian.

it is a problem within the muslim community, when it was a problem in the Catholic community they were called catholic priests, they weren't called priests because there can be priests in any number of religions and Catholics didn't try to excuse them, like the excuses we are hearing from this community.

[Tom4784]

Hopefully justice will be served and the victims can begin their road to recovery. It's vile how common stories like this are becoming.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think the difference there is Catholic Priests were in a position of power especially over children and had alot of power within communities and even government (in Ireland anyway) So it would be more comparable if it were Muslim priests doing the abusing (or whatever the equivalent of a priest is)

I guess in this situation it would be like a group of white European paedophiles referred to as Christian paedophiles which never happens, lets be honest

Tbh.

The mention of them being muslim serves no point but to incite hate towards muslims as a whole.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

it is a problem within the muslim community, when it was a problem in the Catholic community they were called catholic priests, they weren't called priests because there can be priests in any number of religions and Catholics didn't try to excuse them, like the excuses we are hearing from this community.

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

Yes exactly what i was trying to say.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But priests actually work in churches and with followers of said religion. That became a problem within the actual church.

Unless these men are Imam's(?) it's not really the same comparison.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes exactly what i was trying to say.

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

Niamh I listened to a debate on 5 live yesterday morning, one guy actually said it was the girls fault for not being looked after properly and the rest were more concerned that the word muslim was being used than what happened to the girls, I'm not dreaming this up, maybe there is a podcast you can listen to, its an eye opener.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Niamh I listened to a debate on 5 live yesterday morning, one guy actually said it was the girls fault for not being looked after properly and the rest were more concerned that the word muslim was being used than what happened to the girls, I'm not dreaming this up, maybe there is a podcast you can listen to, its an eye opener.

I thought you meant people in this thread. That sounds terrible though and neither of those opinions are helpful imo

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

But Asian covers such a vast number of races, it is a problem among Asians who are muslim so why can we not say that?

Say Middle-Eastern then to avoid confusion. There is little if any direct evidence that they are Muslim, let alone practicing Muslim, other than their country of cultural origin.

Might they all be. Muslim? Sure. And I also didn't say you "can't" say it, I said it's not helpful, it's counterproductive, it (quite evidently) deviates the discussion away from the actual incident into "yet more Islam stuff". So the question isn't really "why can people not say that?", it's "why are people so desperate to say it" even when it's distracting and damaging to do so.

Like I said, it feels like outrage and indignation are somehow thought to be more moral or valuable than pragmatic solution-seeking.

"I don't care if it isn't helpful I am rly mad about this Muslims issue and I want the world to know just how mad!"

Why?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

There have been loads of these gangs and loads of court cases around the country and it does seem to be a problem specific to Muslims.Don't forget many get married at a very young age and also there's the power over women thing.Yes there are sick bastards of all race but this is a particular cultural problem of it's own.The fact they do it as gangs and have group consensus on such a sick thing says alot rather than just some lone pervert in his basement.

Even if this is true, does pointing it out do ANYTHING that helps or improves the situation.

That is what people need to start considering. Are they saying things because they are true and it's helpful to go there... or because they have truth in them and it makes them angry. Even if saying it actually makes the situation worse and leads to more victims, not fewer.

To repeat, again, why is everyone (of various opinions) so adamant in insisting that the right to anger / outrage / incredulity is of paramount importance, rather than actually having any interest in real solutions?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Yes Cherie... You might say... It's almost as if clumsy use of poorly selected (yet deliberate and agenda driven) language has distracted from the real topic.

No?

I'm utterly confused as to how you can be saying that I'm wrong in one post, and then providing examples of exactly that happening two posts later.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Cherie

it's a bit deeper than going around abusing teens, it an attitudinal problem that they see white girls as easy? why aren't they abusing young girls from their own community?

Cause they dont have much to do with their wives.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Who tf is making excuses for these men? That's low tbf Cherie. It's a disgusting crime, these men are disgusting, if anything it's people blaming Muslims as a whole are the ones responsible for taking the focus off the victims.

Regarding Catholic Priests, pretty much all the abuse within the church in Ireland was down to Catholic Priests so that's why it's referred as a Catholic priests here anyway, don't know much about it in England tbh

Not just priests, nuns, cardinals..probably one or 2 popes...the whole catholic church is riddled with them...ask anyone brought up through the care system in east london.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Not just priests, nuns, cardinals..probably one or 2 popes...the whole catholic church is riddled with them...ask anyone brought up through the care system in east london.

Oh sure I know Parmnion, there's been so much disgusting stuff un earthed here over the last few years to do with, work houses, mother and baby homes etc all run by the church. No religious organisations should have that much control and power over the poorest and most vulnerable in society imo

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't really get that argument because Anglican priests were involved as well but your rarely hear them being referred to, they weren't as prolific but that is not the point.

The worrying thing is the excuses being made so rather than identify with the victims these men were complaining about the use of the word muslim and the fact that they girls should have been looked after as they were deemed to be vulnerable and if someone had looked after them better then this issue wouldn't have arisen.

Nobody's made excuses for anyone. They're, quite rightly, annoyed with the actual issues being swept under the rug by throwing this latest event into a very large box labelled "Evil Muslims". I think THAT is undermining the real issues.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mentioned neither colour nor race? It is you who is assuming that all middle eastern men are practicing Muslims, by insisting on terming a middle eastern gang "a Muslim gang".

Regardless; my point stands. No matter how much truth ther is in it, if focussing on "Muslim!" is actually counterproductive to finding a solution, then why do it? Does the right to be fruitlessly outraged come before the need for level-headed solutions?

You did indeed reference race when you mentioned 'white people'. Inferring the issue lies with colour. I don't know why you are calling them middle eastern men, I would imagine they are all British citizens or press coverage would mention they were foreign nationals.

I didn't say on any of my posts that they were all Muslims though I don't know of many Asian men personally who arent. I said the Muslim faith has worrying attitudes towards women and could be part of the problem. You are reading what you want to in that. If you shirk the problems rather than addressing them they continue. If at some point communities or authorities admit there might be a problem perhaps they can begin to address it through education, keep sweeping it under the carpet and you are basically kicking the victims in the teeth.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I can't help feel to an extent it does stem from religion in the sense that women are not equals in the Muslim faith which then bleeds into culture family life. How do you expect people to respect women if their whole belief system is telling them that women are less than men.

The 'girls' they target are white Western girls who they deem as worthless,so that tells me it's not to do with religion but race.

[reece(:]

It's scary that stuff like this is going on in my city

[StephenPullen]

Not Asian, I would rather say Muslim community. You don't have these kinds of sexual abuse problems in the vast majority of other Asian cultures.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by StephenPullen

Not Asian, I would rather say Muslim community. You don't have these kinds of sexual abuse problems in the vast majority of other Asian cultures.

How do you know?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You did indeed reference race when you mentioned 'white people'. Inferring the issue lies with colour. I don't know why you are calling them middle eastern men, I would imagine they are all British citizens or press coverage would mention they were foreign nationals.

I mentioned the "white people can't be racist" thing as another example of rhetoric that promotes backlash; not in any way related to making THIS case about race.

If it helps, I could have used the un-race-related example of the vegan cafe "man tax" thread? i.e. it isn't untrue that there are some inequalities between genders, but addressing it in certain ways promotes unhelpful backlash. That is the entirety of what I'm talking about.

[StephenPullen]

This type of thing doesn't happen in the Hindu community, nor the Sikh. There are no organized Buddhist sex gangs either. Only one common denominator.

[Kazanne]

They said on the news it is mainly Pakistani Asian men.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by StephenPullen

This type of thing doesn't happen in the Hindu community, nor the Sikh. There are no organized Buddhist sex gangs either. Only one common denominator.

And in what way does focussing on this actually help?

Anyone?

No one has managed to answer this yet.