[jet]

Originally Posted by Withano

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

So it's offensive even though no Zulu's have said so? But knock yourself out and be offended for them, and I'll reserve the right not to be offended for them as they haven't said they are, and I'm sure they can speak very well for themselves without my help. Deal?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

So it's offensive even though no Zulu's have said so? But knock yourself out and be offended for them, and I'll reserve the right not to be offended for them as they haven't said they are, and I'm sure they can speak very well for themselves without my help. Deal?

That doesnt really answer my question? Could I imply that all of (any group) are stupid idiots, and it would only be offensive if someone from that group says so? I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Withano

That doesnt really answer my question? Could I imply that all of (any group) are stupid idiots, and it would only be offensive if someone from that group says so? I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

It's a stupid question.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

It's a stupid question.

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

We do when it’s something as harmless as dressing up for an event. Bit of harmless fun that you are trying to turn into a huge racist mess.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

We do when it’s something as harmless as dressing up for an event. Bit of harmless fun that you are trying to turn into a huge racist mess.

Didnt you say yesterday that drag queens were offensive to women? Before you learned drag kings existed? Lemme know when youve figured out where you stand yourself, you're a bit all over the place atm.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

I would agree with all that, TS, apart from the last paragraph. I think it would be a stretch for black people to think anyone was making fun of them by dressing in Zulu costume for a festival. It's a hell of a long time since the majority of black people were primitive or tribal....and white people were once primitive and tribal too...so no dressing as a caveman....

Maybe so but it's not that long since the majority of western people incorrectly THOUGHT that they were, a couple of centuries at most, and of course there are still a few pockets of people who think that way. So my point I guess is that while the people actually dressing up might have no ill intent at all, there's always the risk of a misunderstanding of those motives. I mean, you can say "Well if they misunderstand and get angry that's their problem", which I guess it is, but it's also not an attitude that's actually going to improve the situation as a whole... Where constructive dialogue about the reasons for doing it might.

Basically instead of a town saying "It's tradition so we're doing it and if you don't like it, tough!"... They could give out information about the history of the event to give it proper context and say "It's a longstanding tradition that we feel is positive, here are the reasons we have for continuing it, we hope people aren't offended by it."

There's a world of difference there without anything else actually having to change much.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Withano

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

This is a thread about Zulu's, and I was referring to Zulu's. A Zulu has already said he is not offended, no other Zulu's have contradicted him. I respond on a case to case basis. Got it?
I don't know what this topic has to do with all the other things you wheeled out. Honestly, it seems you just want to nitpick and argue for the sake of it.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

This is a thread about Zulu's, and I was referring to Zulu's. A Zulu has already said he is not offended, no other Zulu's have contradicted him. I respond on a case to case basis. Got it?
I don't know what this topic has to do with all the other things you wheeled out. Honestly, it seems you just want to nitpick and argue for the sake of it.

No I'm asking for your definition of offense really. Ignoring offensive stuff until some sort of spokesperson for a group claims offense seems silly? I was making sure that this is what you were suggesting. If you dont want to discuss it, you dont have to respond lol.

...also i asked if it applied to everything ever, and you ignored the question so I rephrased it... althoug i am now wondering where the line is.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Withano

No I'm asking for your definition of offense really. Ignoring offensive stuff until some sort of spokesperson for a group claims offense seems silly? I was making sure that this is what you were suggesting. If you dont want to discuss it, you dont have to respond lol.

...also i asked if it applied to everything ever, and you ignored the question so I rephrased it... althoug i am now wondering where the line is.

I already answered your question above - no it doesn't apply to anything ever, I have said my opinion applies to this thread about Zulu's and I take every topic on a case to case basis. Not sure why you keep asking me the same thing when I've already answered.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Didnt you say yesterday that drag queens were offensive to women? Before you learned drag kings existed? Lemme know when youve figured out where you stand yourself, you're a bit all over the place atm.

If you read it properly you will see that I was saying it could be perceived that way but women didn’t make a big fuss about it. I also said I wasn’t that bothered by it - but it was an appropriate comparison. Women don’t generally get all offended over more minor things. Maybe women aren’t the drama queens.

[thesheriff443]

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

The voice of reason.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jet

I already answered your question above - no it doesn't apply to anything ever, I have said my opinion applies to this thread about Zulu's and I take every topic on a case to case basis. Not sure why you keep asking me the same thing when I've already answered.

You didnt originally answer the question. You answered it after I rephrased it, and then you asked me why I rephrased it, and then I explained why i rephrased it, and now we're here. Idk, you're welcome?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

The question isn't whether or not each person finds it offensive, though, not really. I personally am not offended by blackface, racist words, racist stereotypes, any other sorts of stereotypes (including ones that apply to me, e.g. about men or about Scottish people). I'm very, very hard to offend I would say. However, not being easily offended on a personal level doesn't mean that you can't try to appreciate that some people ARE hurt, offended and angered by various things and therefore, is it not important to consider the feelings of others? Again I'll say that I'm well aware that it can go too far, there is a line where it becomes ridiculous (as we're seeing on certain academic campuses, etc.) but likewise, there is a line that goes the other way... I sort of feel like we (as a society) are somehow losing the ability to have a feel for what's "too far"... and people are dividing into these two extreme camps where one will take offense at things so minor that it becomes impossible to live a normal existence, and at the same time, the other end of the spectrum is saying "well I've had enough of all of it so I'll just say and do whatever I want" with which, again, things start to become impossible.

Where is the middle ground and why have we lost it? As always, this forum seems to be a bit of a microcosm for this effect. Views seem to be so extreme one way or the other, and frankly, the answer ALWAYS (with all things) lies somewhere in the grey area.

[Beso]

I dont think peoples opinions are extreme at all TS...there aint no hate that i can see on this forum..apart from paedophiles, baby killers and terrorists.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maybe so but it's not that long since the majority of western people incorrectly THOUGHT that they were, a couple of centuries at most, and of course there are still a few pockets of people who think that way. So my point I guess is that while the people actually dressing up might have no ill intent at all, there's always the risk of a misunderstanding of those motives. I mean, you can say "Well if they misunderstand and get angry that's their problem", which I guess it is, but it's also not an attitude that's actually going to improve the situation as a whole... Where constructive dialogue about the reasons for doing it might.

Basically instead of a town saying "It's tradition so we're doing it and if you don't like it, tough!"... They could give out information about the history of the event to give it proper context and say "It's a longstanding tradition that we feel is positive, here are the reasons we have for continuing it, we hope people aren't offended by it."

There's a world of difference there without anything else actually having to change much.

As someone in the article says, if those people were petitioning against racism in schools it would be more helpful than picking on a long standing tradition that isn't meant to be in any way offensive. It's a question of picking your battles.
As the Zulu said:
“So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

What an enlightened and sensible man. I sometimes cringe at the way black people are patronised - sometimes I think they must say to themselves
"they think that they are superior to me, that I'm not normal like them, so they have tip toe around me and watch they don't say or do anything to offend my tender sensibilities". I'm maybe not putting that very well, and maybe that is just me, but maybe you can get an inkling of what I'm getting at?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

As someone in the article says, if those people were petitioning against racism in schools it would be more helpful than picking on a long standing tradition that isn't meant to be in any way offensive. It's a question of picking your battles.
As the Zulu said:
“So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

What an enlightened and sensible man. I sometimes cringe at the way black people are patronised - sometimes I think they must say to themselves
"they think that they are superior to me, that I'm not normal like them, so they have tip toe around me and watch they don't say or do anything to offend my tender sensibilities". I'm maybe not putting that very well, and maybe that is just me, but maybe you can get an inkling of what I'm getting at?

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

[jet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

[Cherie]

is this groundhog day

ut Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...zulu-performer

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jet

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

same topic, same newspaper, different opinion, it depends on how the wind is blowing?

[bots]

it surely must depend on whether the person(s) doing it are honouring the culture or ridiculing it

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it surely must depend on whether the person(s) doing it are honouring the culture or ridiculing it

well I would have thought so but maybe that is too simple in these times? we need the drama! it 's like oxegen

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

is this groundhog day

ut Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...zulu-performer

Actually the piece I posted is an update to this one.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jet

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

OR.....He did some research on this 'tradition'.