[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by teeeny

i wonder would she date a trans man? not liking India at all very hypocritical and Malika was exactly right, shes a victim

India would never date a trans man that's the hypocrisy of it!!. i wish somebody asked her this and flipped the tables on her .

[jaxie]

I will

Originally Posted by Smithy

I suppose where India’s issue lies is that by someone saying they wouldn’t date a trans person, that that person doesn’t see the trans person as an actual member of that gender, so by genuine saying he wouldn’t date her because she’s trans, he’s saying he doesn’t see her as an actual woman

India is being completely unrealistic and I think it's something a lot of people are unrealistic about for the sake of PC. India has had cosmetic changes so that India feels comfortable but those changes only go so far, it's still mostly the same body of a 50 year old man, same height, voice hip shape etc. The changes are a self desire but they don't magically transform you into Britney Spears in the eyes of others. People will be polite and respect your right to live as desired. But a straight man is attracted to women. India does not look like a woman so why would a straight guy want to date her? Most people are attracted to others through physical appearance initially. Your body change isn't necessarily going to make you more attractive to straight people.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I will

India is being completely unrealistic and I think it's something a lot of people are unrealistic about for the sake of PC. India has had cosmetic changes so that India feels comfortable but those changes only go so far, it's still mostly the same body of a 50 year old man, same height, voice hip shape etc. The changes are a self desire but they don't magically transform you into Britney Spears in the eyes of others. People will be polite and respect your right to live as desired. But a straight man is attracted to women. India does not look like a woman so why would a straight guy want to date her? Most people are attracted to others through physical appearance initially. Your body change isn't necessarily going to make you more attractive to straight people.

Yeah, and I can understand where people don't really want to have this discussion with folk who already struggle everyday with their identity. To that end, I can understand how India's feelings were not just hurt in some trivial way.

Maybe in her real life, people handle her fragility differently (with kid gloves) and keeps these conversations to a minimum as a means to not exacerbate her dysphoria. But I also don't think that we should be encouraging this perception that just because you change your sex on your ID or have work done, that other's perception of your sex/gender should also change. These shouldn't be sold as a bill of goods, a means to achieving permanent acceptance in other people's eyes. What it should represent is your individual choice to live as a particular gender and to enjoy your legal rights while doing so (i.e. use the bathroom of that gender), to go with the internal work. To sell it as more than this is not only harmful but will lead to disappointment. I don't think she's fully transitioned spiritually/mentally in this respect.. she really does seem to treat it as though being a woman comes down to boobs, cloths and hair (the whole "diva" thing)... and just kinda missing out on everything else in the process. She could have a very good experience in the house if she would just let things happen.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Maru

Yeah, and I can understand where people don't really want to have this discussion with folk who already struggle everyday with their identity. To that end, I can understand how India's feelings were not just hurt in some trivial way.

Maybe in her real life, people handle her fragility differently (with kid gloves) and keeps these conversations to a minimum as a means to not exacerbate her dysphoria. But I also don't think that we should be encouraging this perception that just because you change your sex on your ID or have work done, that other's perception of your sex/gender should also change. These shouldn't be sold as a bill of goods, a means to achieving permanent acceptance in other people's eyes. What it should represent is your individual choice to live as a particular gender and to enjoy your legal rights while doing so (i.e. use the bathroom of that gender), to go with the internal work. To sell it as more than this is not only harmful but will lead to disappointment. I don't think she's fully transitioned spiritually/mentally in this respect.. she really does seem to treat it as though being a woman comes down to boobs, cloths and hair (the whole "diva" thing)... and just kinda missing out on everything else in the process. She could have a very good experience in the house if she would just let things happen.

In many ways I think India as a representative of trans just shows that much more counselling and less surgical procedure may be more appropriate in some cases. I don't think the surgery she has had is going to give India what she wants. There is a lot of talk about transformation but that has to be personal because your transformation isn't necessarily transforming others or how they will see you.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by jaxie

In many ways I think India as a representative of trans just shows that much more counselling and less surgical procedure may be more appropriate in some cases. I don't think the surgery she has had is going to give India what she wants. There is a lot of talk about transformation but that has to be personal because your transformation isn't necessarily transforming others or how they will see you.

Why did she go on BB she clearly needs counselling then . She keeps having these random outbursts everytime somebody has a different opinion and it's tiresome to see .

Ginuwine was being honest in the most gentlemanly way which was nice to see , i bet people assumed he'd be a rough argumentative person as he's a rapper.

India is pathetic the way she's pushing him and grabbing him, and even then he's still being polite and just laughing it off .

Malika even said if a guy didn't fancy her because his preference was for another ethnicity she wouldn't cry and moan about it .

Ginuwine is a straight man with 9 kids therefore he must fancy all women??? , India is delusional .

[chuff me dizzy]

If the boot had been on the other foot and Ginuwine had grabbed India to try to kiss her she would have kicked up such a stink,he would have been removed

[lostalex]

gender and sex are 2 different things. 1 of them is real the other is not.

[Nicky91]

calling India a woman is shocking indeed, since i still see many male things about ha

i do get the feeling India went into CBB to argue, moan, whine and make everything go on about her

[chuff me dizzy]

If India had done to a man on the outside what she did to Ginuwine she would have got battered

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

calling India a woman is shocking indeed, since i still see many male things about ha

i do get the feeling India went into CBB to argue, moan, whine and make everything go on about her

I agree but would add that my feelings are that India went in to show how brave she has been, how wonderful she was for highlighting her struggles, educating the morons on every aspect of her 50 years as a man in the wrong body and never letting anybody forget how she has transitioned by getting her false boobs out at every opportunity to prove she is now a real woman.

It hasn't happened the way she wanted and her pique at realizing it is manifesting itself in petty spitefulness and throwing her toys out of the pram.

[Livia]

India hasn't experienced that whole being a teenage girl, going through puberty, experimenting with makeup and clothes, falling for the wrong bloke... consequently she has no idea how to dress herself as a fifty something woman, or how to act age-appropriately. You would have thought she had some female friends who would tell her straight... unless, as I suspect, she never thinks she's ever wrong. And her performance last night when she found out someone who has no shortage of female attention, didn't want to date her. She was embarrassing. However, I was really impressed with the others, there seems to be a really good, inclusive feeling in there, and I particularly liked Courtney's take on stuff, especially considering how India had insulted her earlier in the evening.

[MTVN]

Eh I can understand why it's a bit of a kick in the teeth for transwomen to hear that their very status as a transwoman rules them out as a viable partner for a lot of men and it undermines what they hoped to become by transitioning. I don't think India's view is that outrageous really and the counterarguments that people were making were quite poor in saying Ginuwine might also not be attracted to Malika etc. because like India said they're not talking about individuals..

[Shaun]

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

[Livia]

Not being attracted to someone isn't racist. If someone's not into black guys, I think that's just like not being into blonde guys, or guys with tats. For some men, dating India would be like dating a man, she looks like a man - I'm stating that as a fact and not to be insulting. We can't all pretend that fancy everyone so as not to offend, surely! I'm pretty sure there are men out there who wouldn't date me for a variety of reasons... and one of them would be because I'm Jewish. My reaction is that it's their loss.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

I wouldn't go out with a guy, that's writing off an entire demographic too and perfectly acceptable. Sometimes its ok

[Gusto Brunt]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

calling India a woman is shocking indeed, since i still see many male things about her

i do get the feeling India went into CBB to argue, moan, whine and make everything go on about her

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

[waterhog]

we all have preferences that we find attractive and are draw to people. just because you say it - does not make you wrong.


I am looking for a long term lover that can stomach ???? poetry. and I will promise her a love of my life poem every day of my life. but she can not be called narcissis ?

[Livia]

I wonder what the answer would be if someone asked Ginuwine whether he would date someone born a woman... who is over 50. I can guess what the answer would be and I doubt any of the 50+ women in there would go and throw themselves on the bed sobbing.

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not being attracted to someone isn't racist. If someone's not into black guys, I think that's just like not being into blonde guys, or guys with tats. For some men, dating India would be like dating a man, she looks like a man - I'm stating that as a fact and not to be insulting. We can't all pretend that fancy everyone so as not to offend, surely! I'm pretty sure there are men out there who wouldn't date me for a variety of reasons... and one of them would be because I'm Jewish. My reaction is that it's their loss.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not being attracted to someone isn't racist. If someone's not into black guys, I think that's just like not being into blonde guys, or guys with tats. For some men, dating India would be like dating a man, she looks like a man - I'm stating that as a fact and not to be insulting. We can't all pretend that fancy everyone so as not to offend, surely! I'm pretty sure there are men out there who wouldn't date me for a variety of reasons... and one of them would be because I'm Jewish. My reaction is that it's their loss.

It's generalising every single black person as the same - not worthy of your body, how is it not racist? It's not hateful, sure, but I'm entirely uncomfortable with just going "no jews, no latinos" or whatever on a dating profile. Maybe I'm just not fussy

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I wouldn't go out with a guy, that's writing off an entire demographic too and perfectly acceptable. Sometimes its ok

An interesting point but is more down to your requirement of a sexual partner (presumably, not a penis) rather than something like their skin colour, hair colour, operation history etc.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Jake.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

But that is his choice and no one can tell him he's wrong

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

But that is his choice and no one can tell him he's wrong

I didn’t say it wasn’t his choice, I was clarifying what he’d said

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Shaun

It's generalising every single black person as the same - not worthy of your body, how is it not racist? It's not hateful, sure, but I'm entirely uncomfortable with just going "no jews, no latinos" or whatever on a dating profile. Maybe I'm just not fussy

Well, that is what I heard............

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jake.

But Ginuwine said he wouldn’t date any trans woman, didn’t he? Not just India? So it wouldn’t matter how much of a woman they looked

Maybe he's just not attracted to transsexuals. I don't see a problem with that. Not everyone fancies everyone.