[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

I guess I more think along the lines of

People have the right to anything that is valid. There isnt a valid reason to hate an entrie group, there isn't a valid reason to steal or murder either. Nobody has that 'right'. (Maybe we're interpreting the word 'entitled' differently)

I'm well aware that I cant change their thought, if a person believes they have the right to steal or murder or hate an entire group, I'd argue that they do not, I wouldn't argue that I can police their thoughts.

You see you're comparing 2 things that are crimes with something that isn't a crime.

The thoughts are not criminal, some extreme actions are.

That's exactly why I said your question was too broad.

I think we're agreed on most things really I just think people need to step back sometimes and pick the right battles.

Going too far is never going to work.



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[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

You see you're comparing 2 things that are crimes with something that isn't a crime.

The thoughts are not criminal, some extreme actions are.

That's exactly why I said your question was too broad.

I think we're agreed on most things really I just think people need to step back sometimes and pick the right battles.

Going too far is never going to work.



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The thought that 'I'm entitled to steal' or 'I'm entitled to be a racist' isn't criminal, correct, that was the point I was making (race-based hate crimes are on a similar level to stealing). I've never suggested we should police thoughts - I was asking at what point are they allowed to express their thoughts, and are they even entitled to their thoughts/speech/actions regarding the topic.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

The thought that 'I'm entitled to steal' or 'I'm entitled to be a racist' isn't criminal, correct, that was the point I was making. I've never suggested it was, I've never suggested we should police that - I was asking at what point are they allowed to express their thoughts, and are they entitled to their thoughts/speech/actions regarding the topic.

Okay but that's not the original question you asked is it?

That's a fair question.

But here's the thing. You asked earlier if it's okay to hold that view as long as it's secret and the way society is going now it will be secret.

How do you effect change if you don't know people's views?

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[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Okay but that's not the original question you asked is it?

That's a fair question.

But here's the thing. You asked earlier if it's okay to hold that view as long as it's secret and the way society is going now it will be secret.

How do you effect change if you don't know people's views?

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You implied that was your answer to the original question I was asking whether I understood you correctly, I presume not now haha.

Originally Posted by Paula D

If the question was are people allowed have their own opinions as long as they don't negatively take action against others then my answer is yes

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

I guess I more think along the lines of

People have the right to anything that is valid. There isnt a valid reason to hate an entrie group, there isn't a valid reason to steal or murder either. Nobody has that 'right'. (Maybe we're interpreting the word 'entitled' differently)

I'm well aware that I cant change their thought, if a person believes they have the right to steal or murder or hate an entire group, I'd argue that they do not, I wouldn't argue that I can police their thoughts.

..there isn’t a valid reason for a phobia though, it’s more establishing where the ‘illogical’ derives from with someone..why fear a group of people as you say that are no threat to you../ ..aren’t going to harm you etc...but that person is feeling a fear by their phobia, so it’s important that, that’s discussed as well...and we can’t discuss what we don’t t know is there in the first place...?...maybe we can never change some views because they’re too instilled and will never be open to change..but it’s all we can do, to try to understand and not ‘throw hate’ back......and rely on laws for cases which are appropriate to infringing on human rights/prejudicing etc...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..there isn’t a valid reason for a phobia though, it’s more establishing where the ‘illogical’ derives from with someone..why fear a group of people as you say that are no threat to you../ ..aren’t going to harm you etc...but that person is feeling a fear by their phobia, so it’s important that, that’s discussed as well...and we can’t discuss what we don’t t know is there in the first place...?...maybe we can never change some views because they’re too instilled and will never be open to change..but it’s all we can do, to try to understand and not ‘throw hate’ back......and rely on laws for cases which are appropriate to infringing on human rights/prejudicing etc...

I'm really not asking whether a person has the right to change a persons racist etc views, I'm asking whether theyre entitled to those views in todays society in the first place.

Discussions are important, and labels are counterintuitive at times, sure, but are we passed the point where these sort of views are ever valid at any time by any person? Or are they still ok in some situations?

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

You implied that was your answer to the original question I was asking whether I understood you correctly, I presume not now haha.

Fair enough, you presumed wrong.

And maybe I'm not explaining it right. What I'm trying to urge people to do is respect other people views even if you don't like them, otherwise you will never effect change.

If you keep telling people they've no right to views it will only make them dig their heels even more.

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[Paula D]

As someone once said "I hate your views but I defend to the death your tight to have them".

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[Paula D]

Right I meant

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[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Fair enough, you presumed wrong.

And maybe I'm not explaining it right. What I'm trying to urge people to do is respect other people views even if you don't like them, otherwise you will never effect change.

If you keep telling people they've no right to views it will only make them dig their heels even more.

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So, in general, yes a person is entitled to hate groups? Theyre entitled to make this public information? But theyre not entitled to hurt others physically and verbally? In your opinion?

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

So, in general, yes a person is entitled to hate groups? Theyre entitled to make this public information? But theyre not entitled to hurt others physically and verbally? In your opinion?

Yes. Do no harm is my motto.

That's why the gay marriage example is an extremely good one.

What harm if someone doesn't agree with it but doesn't take any action to prevent it?

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[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Withano

The thought that 'I'm entitled to steal' or 'I'm entitled to be a racist' isn't criminal, correct, that was the point I was making (race-based hate crimes are on a similar level to stealing). I've never suggested we should police thoughts - I was asking at what point are they allowed to express their thoughts, and are they even entitled to their thoughts/speech/actions regarding the topic.

I don't quite understand what you mean by the last sentence? Are they even entitled to those thoughts? Of course they are entitled to them. You can't change peoples thoughts processes and by saying they are not entitled to them will only reinforce in their own minds that their thoughts are right. As I said earlier, you can't fight oppression with oppression. The only way to beat prejudices etc is by education and talking about issues. It pisses me off when people shut people down with" that's racist you cant say that" for example without having a discussion about why it is unacceptable. People who hold firm beliefs about certain groups of society are usually educated from an early age to think that people from different parts of society are wrong so just shutting them down without discussion does no good. Education, talking and discussion is the way forward, not taking people's rights to free speech and even thought as has been suggested away. We have freedom of speech for a reason, to open discussion and hopefully education

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm really not asking whether a person has the right to change a persons racist etc views, I'm asking whether theyre entitled to those views in todays society in the first place.

Discussions are important, and labels are counterintuitive at times, sure, but are we passed the point where these sort of views are ever valid at any time by any person? Or are they still ok in some situations?

..I guess they’re entitled to them within the boundaries of legislation and the law..regardless of whether you, I or anyone else finds some views uncomfortable....in total opposition to our own etc...I just think that not hearing those views or stifling them as it were within those boundaries...is tantamount to walking away from a perceived ‘ism’, which surely can’t be ‘right’...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I don't quite understand what you mean by the last sentence? Are they even entitled to those thoughts? Of course they are entitled to them. You can't change peoples thoughts processes and by saying they are not entitled to them will only reinforce in their own minds that their thoughts are right. As I said earlier, you can't fight oppression with oppression. The only way to beat prejudices etc is by education and talking about issues. It pisses me off when people shut people down with" that's racist you cant say that" for example without having a discussion about why it is unacceptable. People who hold firm beliefs about certain groups of society are usually educated from an early age to think that people from different parts of society are wrong so just shutting them down without discussion does no good. Education, talking and discussion is the way forward, not taking people's rights to free speech and even thought as has been suggested away. We have freedom of speech for a reason, to open discussion and hopefully education

Yeh that was just me elaborating what I was asking, are they entitled to their thoughts - you say yes, speech seems more on the edge, and I think the entire forum would agree that actions are unacceptable - I'm more interested in everyones lines of what people are entitled to as far as racism/sexism etc go

[Livia]

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

That isnt at all what the thread is about, are you baiting again

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

That isnt at all what the thread is about, are you baiting again

Baiting? AGAIN?

Seems that's the claim every time I post. Don't try to minimise my opinion, you're not the thought police yet.


It's exactly what the thread is about, whining about how someone's feelings get hurt in this country, while gay people are being thrown off roofs in the middle east.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

To be fair it's easier to make a stand against someone who won't make you a wedding cake, than it is a toxic culture which grips several countries.

Spoiler:

I will add I think any shop or service should have the right to deny custom to anyone for any reason, but the above was just an example

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Baiting? AGAIN?

Seems that's the claim every time I post.

Yes pretty much. Its getting a bit much, no.

I've worked in the middle east, and central Africa before btw, and I do believe I did a lot to help exactly what you were describing. That isnt particularly revelavnt to the thread though.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

To be fair it's easier to make a stand against someone who won't make you a wedding cake, than it is a toxic culture which grips several countries.

Spoiler:

I will add I think any shop or service should have the right to deny custom to anyone for any reason, but the above was just an example

Yeah, I see that. But making someone into a victim because someone else hurts their feelings, only minimises the terrible, violent treatment that gays face all over the globe. Also, where's the celebration of how very far we've come as a country in the last twenty years or so. No mention of that....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, I see that. But making someone into a victim because someone else hurts their feelings, only minimises the terrible, violent treatment that gays face all over the globe. Also, where's the celebration of how very far we've come as a country in the last twenty years or so. No mention of that....

People literally celebrate that very loudly on a month+ long annual basis.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Withano

People literally celebrate that very loudly on a month+ long annual basis.

Not a word on here though... ever.

[Tom4784]

As long as it doesn't translate into action then anyone has the right to be a bigot but everyone else has the right to call them out on their bull****.

Freedom of Speech is not a shield to protect people from being criticised or from having other people form their own opinions on other people's opinions. As I've said for years on this site, Freedom of Speech is a two way street. A person cannot cling to it to justify their opinions but then try to deny someone else from employing their right to freedom of speech to criticise them.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

well said Livia

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do they have that right in today's society?

Are they allowed to feel and think a certain way, well yes, you can't police thinking. You can only try to educate people away from those views.

Should they always express those views? Well it's best to avoid things that could be upsetting to others but it's not always black and white (no pun intended) in the sense of interpretations.

For instance I have issues personally with religions in the sense that I feel that people, more specifically women, are treated in a misogynist and oppressed way by religious teachings and peoples interpretations of them. I speak out about that because I believe it is wrong. Others sometimes misinterpret that as being against a certain demographic of people. Does that mean I shouldn't speak about it? No I don't think so.

Freedom of speech means they do have an entitlement to express views, even where they are offensive or differ from others. Also if people don't speak about potentially racist views, how can you educate them because you don't know how they feel.

So a complicated question with no simple answers.

With regard the poll I've answered yes because I think people are entitled to think what they want, however offensive it is.

Originally Posted by Livia

If someone wants to get bent out of shape about racism and homophobia, then do something to help those fighting against injustice across the world and stop your self-righteous nit-picking in a country where you are free to be and to love whoever you want.

Livia's answer is probably the answer with the greatest wisdom.