[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

Good post!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The name of the pub doesn't do them any favours either

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I expect they have been up there long before it became PC to be outraged by them

It says they have had them up for 3 years.

I am not that up to date on gollys tbf, but I am fairly sure that they have been considered offensive for a lot longer than that so its not even a case of..they have been part of the decor since the place opened and its a nostalgia thing.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

There's more evidence of racism towards this man than evidence of racism I think based on the article. He's had conversations with his patrons about it, and he's not been aggressive or unwelcoming towards people about it seems. He's welcoming a dialogue. That's quite profound. Maybe he's advertising his freedom of speech here by putting up a dozen dolls, but this doesn't automatically mean "oh he's intentionally being offensive!"... there are people who bring up race and bigotry every chance they get... but they can see beyond race right? That doesn't wash. Could easily be interpreted as a counter demonstration to quite a common dialogue in society.

If he were an actual racist, they would be hidden in the back room or he'd be very defensive and discourteous towards folk who questioned him about it. Change his skin color, if this were a black person... and they had Black Power dolls/posters everywhere or something. Which some people do put up when they have organizations or meetings, etc. Some of the same folk would say it's "empowerment" or "freedom of speech" or sharing "their roots"...

TLDR; My point is, none of us can definitively say we know what his intent is. But to automatically go for the worst conclusion on the basis of the color of his skin, his appearance(s) and the items in his bar actually in itself is a racist conclusion.

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

Gun conventions, gun stores, outdoor stores or in rural areas, bars, restaurants and various little mom and pop shops in rural areas all display these type of items (never even heard of a Gollywog). Often quite overblown compared to this example. The items in them have some historical context attached to it , sometimes political and they'll happily tell you what the displays are for... one of the last gunshops I'd been to had a Japanese pachinko in it for some reason and I was translating the labels and instructions. There will often be weird little things like that on display as well that many foreigners will come in and ask about it. A lot of these folk are huge history/memorabilia nuts and find some olden symbolism to be indicative of national pride, old-school traditions, etc...


Seriousness aside, I don't know what it is about old people and rag-dolls. I have some my grandmother made, including my very first doll which I still have that is named Cindy. I still have them and I could never find it my heart to get rid of any of my stuffed animals either for similar reasons. They're just so representative of my childhood.

[Maru]

Also interesting stuff out there after looking up the name,... there's an inn here in CT with that name. And a local street named White Hart here in Houston... (edit)

The White Hart ("hart" is an archaic word for a mature white stag) was the personal badge of Richard II, who probably derived it from the arms of his mother, Joan "The Fair Maid of Kent", heiress of Edmund of Woodstock. It may also have been a pun on his name, as in "Rich-hart".[1] In the Wilton Diptych (National Gallery, London), which is the earliest authentic contemporary portrait of an English king, Richard II wears a gold and enamelled white hart jewel, and even the angels surrounding the Virgin Mary all wear white hart badges. In English Folklore, the white hart is associated with Herne the Hunter.

There are still many inns and pubs in England that sport a sign of the white hart, the fifth most popular name for a pub.[2]

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a collection of science fictional tall tales under the title of Tales from the White Hart, which used as a framing device the conceit that the tales were told during drinking sessions in a pub named the White Hart that existed somewhere between Fleet Street and the Embankment. This pub was fictional, but was based on a real pub named the White Horse where the science fiction community of London met in the 1940s and 1950s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hart

[Ammi]

..thing is, if I had anything displayed in such a way of quantity and any of my customers/patrons felt offended because of the negative representation attached to a golliwog...then surely in any hospitality industry, it wouldn’t be to feel...ughhh, pc gone mad...it would be to not wish to offend anyone, while they spent their time there...I mean even if offence was never intended or even thought of at the time of displaying them, surely it would be the main consideration now that it is known...he’s 59yrs old, he absolutely must know the negative attachment with golliwogs so to publicly display them seems quite odd...maybe a publicity thing, to court controversy, I don’t know...

[Beso]

Up for 3 years..no complaints...suddenly 1 person us offended and its national news...countries gone mad!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Perhaps not but... and I don't mean to be, err... country-ist here but I suspect you're speaking from a mostly theoretical standpoint here, and not from the standpoint of someone who has been in dozens of similar pubs / bars (the kind that fly two great big flags outside and have point-making props decorating the bar) and know with some degree of accuracy exactly what the general "vibe" of places like this is. Which would be "nationalistic and xenophobic", mostly... certainly far more than being any sort of true champions of free speech. Again I would happily assume with SOME certainty that the "free speech" that is welcome in this bar, is limited to the "free speech" that the owner happens to agree with... and any other contrary "free speech" would be made very unwelcome.

Again, no, obviously can't say this for 100% certain as I haven't been in this specific bar... but I'm damn sure I've been in a tonne that are virtually indistinguishable from it. Minus the Golliwogs, of course. That part's actually quite unique. Weird and passive aggressive as ****, but unique.

You have been in dozens of pubs that fly the English flag, why can't the English flag be flown with pride? after all it is the err flag of England, England must be the only country in the world where flying their flag is seen as some kind of crime couple that with a white man behind the bar with a few tats and not too much hair and you got yourself a racist apparently, I don't know what this guys game is, it does seem a bit odd in these times, but if his patrons don't object then it's his business (pardon the pun), people can vote with their feet if they don't feel it is appropriate

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You have been in dozens of pubs that fly the English flag, why can't the English flag be flown with pride? after all it is the err flag of England, England must be the only country in the world where flying their flag is seen as some kind of crime couple that with a white man behind the bar with a few tats and not too much hair and you got yourself a racist apparently, I don't know what this guys game is, it does seem a bit odd in these times, but if his patrons don't object then it's his business (pardon the pun), people can vote with their feet if they don't feel it is appropriate

ENGLISH FLAG??????

[Beso]

Dont mosques fly the pakistani flag etc etc etc..

[thesheriff443]

If the white heart charged ten pound for a shot of whiskey then lt would have a melt down.

[bots]

The guy is fighting a battle over a decision that was made 30+ years ago to get rid of the gollywog. Its not like its a recent decision. Does that not seem odd to anyone?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

If the white heart charged ten pound for a shot of whiskey then lt would have a melt down.

No I would not as I dont drink Irish Whiskey

I drink Whisky

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The guy is fighting a battle over a decision that was made 30+ years ago to get rid of the gollywog. Its not like its a recent decision. Does that not seem odd to anyone?

which decision was that?

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

which decision was that?

Robinsons jam removed it, it was removed from schools, the similar book was removed

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You have been in dozens of pubs that fly the English flag, why can't the English flag be flown with pride? after all it is the err flag of England, England must be the only country in the world where flying their flag is seen as some kind of crime couple that with a white man behind the bar with a few tats and not too much hair and you got yourself a racist apparently, I don't know what this guys game is, it does seem a bit odd in these times, but if his patrons don't object then it's his business (pardon the pun), people can vote with their feet if they don't feel it is appropriate

I've been in dozens flying over the top British memorabilia and noted that they all have a similar vibe... The "Opinionated Old Man Brexit Vibe", let's say.

I've actually only been in ONE that was covered in just the English flag and tbqfh it was ****ing terrifying. I felt like I had been sucked into "This Is England" .

Getting off track here a bit and arguing things that I really don't need to be argued, when it's just plainly obvious that anyone who is insisting on having a horde of Golliwog dolls adorning their pub is trying to make some sort of point. Claims to the contrary are just nonsense.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Robinsons jam removed it, it was removed from schools, the similar book was removed

Robinsons removed it for strict commercial reasons. I have no idea the motivation by others but I suspect (as is almost always the case) perceived fear of blame


But there was no Gollywog law as far as I am aware

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No I would not as I dont drink Irish Whiskey

I drink Whisky

If it's in a glass it's whiskey full stop

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Robinsons removed it for strict commercial reasons. I have no idea the motivation by others but I suspect (as is almost always the case) perceived fear of blame


But there was no Gollywog law as far as I am aware

Or because they are pretty much objectively racist... They're even more exaggerated dolls of minstrels which are exaggerated parodies of black people. How is it NOT racist ffs. I'm also utterly bewildered by the "It can't be racist because my gran had one" arguments.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Or because they are pretty much objectively racist... They're even more exaggerated dolls of minstrels which are exaggerated parodies of black people. How is it NOT racist ffs. I'm also utterly bewildered by the "It can't be racist because my gran had one" arguments.

Says you. Its just a doll from a bygone age. Its says nothing about today or race. Trying to airbrush it out of existence is not a way forward. In many ways its important to understand exactly what it is and was is important for young people. Yes you dont want it as a new CBBC character but pretending it does not exist is silly.

What is it that you think the pub are doing?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

ENGLISH FLAG??????

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

What is it that you think the pub are doing?

Illustratively?

"We know these are controversial but we're going to have loads of them because that's PC gern mmmeeerrrddd har har harrr aren't we clever look at us, not one, not two, not three but fifteen! Fifteen gollywogs and there's nothing you can say about it, up yours lefty liberals! Brexit, gollywogs and real ale yarrrrrrr ruuule Britainia, God saaave theeeeen queeeeeeen. Gollywogs lol!

If you also hate lefty liberals, love gollywogs and think everything is PC gerrrnnnnn hhhmmeerrrrddd come to our Golliwog pub, it is super clever because it has them. Brexit."

^^ that

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Illustratively?

"We know these are controversial but we're going to have loads of them because that's PC gern mmmeeerrrddd har har harrr aren't we clever look at us, not one, not two, not three but fifteen! Fifteen gollywogs and there's nothing you can say about it, up yours lefty liberals! Brexit, gollywogs and real ale yarrrrrrr ruuule Britainia, God saaave theeeeen queeeeeeen. Gollywogs lol! "

^^ that

yes and if that were indeed the motivation unless they have broken a law then good luck to them. If they have broken a law about gollywogs then down they come

[Ammi]

..if we took away all of the racist/stereotype negative attachments to golliwogs, which there are...if we replaced the ‘display of dolls’ in such a prominent quantity as is reported, with clown dolls or dolls of ‘days gone by’, which could be very ‘creepy’ by nature and would make some feel very uncomfortable, in their display...so would deter from drinking in the pub, surely that would be something the pub owner would consider in losing some potential custom because it’s a business../his livelihood...so he wouldn’t think...oh, I’m going to make a stand with these dolls, I like them very much and you can take them or leave them, you’re jus5 being very PC..and if they offend you, then just don’t come here...so the fact that he’s essentially doing that, is very odd I feel.../..almost like business suicide, to adopt such an adamant stance when his whole business caters to not offending any public..either deliberately or unintentionally...I’m not sure if it’s a family pub or a drinking pub, but if it were me and a child for instance, who felt uncomfortable with a doll../..any doll...I would remove the doll and think I probably wouldn’t put it back again when they had left because it had in some way ‘offended’ or upset...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes and if that were indeed the motivation unless they have broken a law then good luck to them. If they have broken a law about gollywogs then down they come

Well yes, to be fair they can have whatever decorations they want in their sh*tty golliwog pub, it is indeed their business unless the dolls are made illegal. But last time I checked, criticism wasn't limited to what is and isn't legal .